The Possibility of a God
There are a whole lot of people out there who believe in “God”. Billions of people are Christian, Muslim or Jewish, and are following their religion (most often blindly). But I strongly refute the claim that this particular “God” exists, and I have pretty good reason, too. So all those curious people out there, please read this and maybe you will realise your mistake. That said, I am not accusing anyone who believes in God of being stupid. Please make comments to explain your reasoning if you disagree with my theory.
This is based on the three premises put forward by the three major monotheistic religions. God is all powerful, God is all knowing and God is all good. If you refute any of these three premises, then you are not a Christian, Muslim or Jew, and I have no beef with you.
no beef
1. Assume God exists.
2. God is all powerful
3. God is all good
4. All good beings are opposed to suffering
5. All good beings who are able stop suffering will do so immediately
6. God is opposed to suffering (from 3 and 4)
7. God can stop suffering completely and immediately (from 2)
8. God will eliminate suffering completely and immediately (6 and 7)
9. Suffering exists
10. Therefore, God does not exist (8 and 9)
A popular argument against this one, is that “God gave us free will”. Well this argument is utterly useless and completely refutable. Consider those thousands of children who starve in developing nations. How could anyone justify this as free will? And if you believe that it is the fault of human beings, then explain to me how an all good being could justify an innocent child being born into this situation. Is it that child’s fault?
Or if a person is crossing the road, and gets randomly hit by a bus. How does this in any way constitute free will?
Finally, a person is born with a particularly painful and severe disease. If this has happened, explain to me how there could possibly be an all powerful, all knowing, all good being out there?
Again, I am not a Christian hater. I am simply offering a debate on the possible existence of your god. I welcome civilised argument in the comments.
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The concept of a God or god-form is not necessarily an absolute, but a conjuration.
In monotheistic or even polytheistic religions, there is a common thread that remains constant. The god is respresented in a fashion that is favorable to the followers of that god. Considering that any text detailing history or storylines of good acts or prophetic vision are written by the hand of man, we must conclude that god, in whatever form presented, must fulfil the standards that man puts to it.
In the example of God being all good, there is no evidence to support an “absolute good”. In order for something to be “right”, there must be an opposite, yet equally weighted “wrong”. Nothing, not even a god, can be a form of “absolute good”, due to the fact that his existence alone must have a negative effect on even molecular particles.
Your arguement is a good one, but there are some key points that would better present it in a more logical fashion. Bear in mind, I am not attempting to trivialize or demean your work, but I would like to offer a dialogue. I have a background in crossexamination of religions and I would be interested in comparing knowledge. I am sure that we both gain ground where alone we would not.
My email is shadowreign666@gmail.com. I look forward to your response.
Fair enough, Shadow.
But let me clarify my point. I am saying that God, as these people know it, does not exist. And if even one of these three essential properties of the Christian/Muslim/Jewish God is impossible, then these religions are essentially incorrect.
I’ve addressed your topic in my For Atheists page under Junaman thread – Empiricism vs. Rationalism, but I’ll respond to your logic w/in the framework of Christianity:
Define “God”. You do that in 2, 3, 6, 7 and 8, not 1. The Old Testament, throughout the course of its 39 books, does it in a similar fashion, but comes up with a different conclusion.
Define “all powerful” and “all good”. In the OT, God is also “all holy”.
#4 lacks context. Also, what’s suffering? In Scripture, God is opposed to sin, which has created suffering (see Adam and Eve).
#5 is an assumption about what is absolutely good. In the Bible, God lays out the plan for man’s redemption, which circumvents his holiness, which in turns works to accept those to the kingdom.
Okay. But your definition of “God” is skewed in terms of the Judeo-Christian tradition.
In Christianity, this fails to take free will into account.
This is a condition met in heaven.
Hope you can see some of the holes. If you’re going to direct this towards Christianity/Judaism, at least explicitly state it.
Fair enough, but allow me to tell a short story.
I once got into a religious debate with a very devout christian over the existence of god. The arguement, on his part, was that creation itself was all the evidence that was needed. That the world and all the things in it justified the base of belief.
My arguement was more simplified. One cannot debate the existence of god because the very principle of god is a faith based principle. It is not determined by facts or evidence. In order to believe in something, one must have “faith” that the god or goddess exists.
I told him that I could not prove him wrong, to which of course, a smug smile began to cross his face, however, I also said that he could not prove his arguement either, because neither of us would know until we died. Until then, we could only believe our respective beliefs.
Granted, I agree with your assessment, however, you can no more disprove the existence of god anymore than I can prove the existence of god. Not I would want to. I’m a pagan, personally, and while my faith in my gods are strong, I choose to test those beliefs with the very arguements that are designed to disprove them. By challenging them and coming through it mentally and emotionally, I affirm my own beliefs all the more.
In the end, it comes down to what one “chooses” to believe. Christians choose to believe in god with many flaws that they choose not see, despite all the glaring omissions and contradictory flaws that flow through the pages of their tome. I choose to believe what I think is the right path, though I would never force upon anyone that assertion. You choose your own path as well, and for that I applaud you. You think with mind as well as your heart, and that is rare gift in the souls of men today.
I look forward to your response.
P.S. The religions of the world share a common bond that you may find interesting. see if you can find it. I was quite surprised when I found it.
And in regards to your comment, all religions are not incorrect, but misinterpreted. The “facts” are presented, but it is the mind and natural tendencies of that person that dictate the formed opinion of those facts.
In response to Albert:
There is a flaw to your arguement.
God has sin in his heart. Bear in mind that if christianity is right, then by that perspective, everything in existence, the world, humanity, concepts, ideals, math, science, these things came from him. There is nothing that could not exist because as a Christian would say, God is responsible for the existence of everything. Therefore, by that statement alone, God is responsible for the existence of sin. In order to have a correct design of what sin is, God must have experienced sin himself. Therefore he cannot be without Sin, thus your arguement, not to mention Christianity as a whole, has some reflection that needs tending.
Do not attempt to say that Satan or Lucifer or the snake in the garden was responsible, as this is not possible. They were created by God. They cannot grow beyond what God allows them to.
Albert,
I have taken free will into account. Did you read the whole post? In heaven? If a man is tortured for hours, is it all OK if he gets an icecream at then end? I did the state the direction of the post. I have firstly proved that either God does not exist (as Christians know it), or Christians are wrong about the God. In regard to free will, I asserted that this is a poor argument. Please explain how my arguments are wrong, rather than pointing out what I have not addressed.
Jester, I would say that arguement is not wrong, but perhaps flawed.
Remember that religion is a matter of perspective and opinion and has little in the way of fact to support it. The problem is that religious followers tend to sight even the smallest factual evidence as rockhard proof without a full investigation of the evidence.
You do realize that opening a Pandora’s Box of problem with this article, yes?
Personally, I feel that you presented your arguement as well as anyone could. And free will is not a poor factor to rely on. It can be if it is the only one you are using to support your hypothesis, but as one of many, then it is a good one.
I did a similar thing on my own blog just yesterday, using simple logic to disprove the omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence (as well as universally forgiving nature) of any possible bible based deity. I think we came to similar conclusions.
Marriage is a sacred institution between a man and a woman ?? That’s bull.
That is okay to say “FAGS burn in hell” ? No, they are lying because maybe they did masturbated and look at porn. Are they not burn in hell ? Yeah, right. They are lying and their religious is a big bull, that’s simple.
It have nothing to do with religious. The religious is something they make up and not all bible are true. Some are true and some are lying. A homosexuality in the bible didnt existed because someone wrote it and made it up, I bet. I totally do not believed them at all. I feel sorry for you people who worries too much about the religious. That’s enough and worry about your life instead! Show love and care, man!
Look at the churches and they are all bulls and they are so horrible and they tells us different stories and confusion us too much. FORGOT THEM and we shall love God himself only without mankind wrote the bibles. Not all bibles are true, period.
I had a long, drawn out post written, but the bottom line is that I agree with Albert. Since you clearly disagree, I’m not going to waste your time trying to convince you otherwise.
Using vague terms such as “good” to disprove the existence of a being as vague as God is a logical fallacy.
Once again we have the token atheist trying to disprove God by focusing solely on the negative aspects of the world.
I think I’ll start but quoting this little gem from whoever said it: ‘You don’t prove God, you experience Him.’
Shadow, you’re partly correct when you say that Lucifer and the serpent were not to blame for sin. Man was. It was due to Adam and Eve disobeying God that sin came into the world- it was through their actions that the rift between the people of the Old Testament and God came about. God had nothing to do with it, but it pained him terribly that such a rift came into existance (which is why he sent Jesus down to earth, to patch up the rift and atone for our sins). He is the only being in existance which is pure and good, and therefore is free from sin.
Jester, You seem to not know what is meant by ‘free will’ in this context. God gave us the free will to worship him of our own accord. It is due to mankind turning it’s back on God that so much suffering has accumulated over the centuries. And as for that dismal example involving a bus, where does free will even come into that?
As for your ‘children who starve’ arguement, consider all the charities in the world working and succeeding to ease thier suffering. Granted, God could very well wave his hand and fill everyone’s bellies, but I believe he has chosen to aid them using other people in much wealthier nations, to stop the richer nations harvesting food for themselves too greedily. Otherwise people will in the more economically developed countries will simply think ‘Ah, we need not give alms to the needy anymore, for God will provide for them directly’.
Don’t take that the wrong way though- God is providing for them through the various aid schemes I mentioned earlier.
Of course, God is all knowing, so he knows the best way to deal with suffering, and it’s obviously not the way he isn’t doing it.
Your final point nearly nailed me though… If it wasn’t for the fact that I’ve had so many people tell me of how God has cured terminal cancer, AIDS and various other ailments (and experienced that healing myself) I would have almost reconsidered my faith. Almost.
Oh yes, and God will wipe out all suffering- Read the book of Revelation to see how.
All in all I’d say this isn’t bad for a hormonal teen at 2 in the morning.
Shadow and Jesterballz,
.
Sorry, but I haven’t had enough time to put into a well-thought post. It looks like I’ve opened up another can of worms
I’ll be contributing, hopefully, sometime w/in the next 24 hours. I think, though, that first your need to look into some of the epistemological assumptions (i.e, “you need to define this” “clarify this” in my original response) before you can proceed any further. See my thread with Junaman about this starting here.
also, quick note to Matt, you might want to take a look at this rationalist proof.
Dear jesterballz and other commenters,
I was originally debating jesterballz about something related to this in his previous post, but his insistence that there is no God hampered progress in the debate. I’m glad he chose to consolidate his point into something more concise in this post.
Some of the believers in this comments section have made a modest effort to refute jesterballz’s ten points. I can’t completely agree with them, however, since I, a Calvinist, believe in predestination.
The problem at the very root of this topic is not, “What are God’s properties?”, but instead, “Who is God?”
Let’s make some things perfectly clear, which my other Christian friends might be a little bit hesitant to admit:
(1) God loves you, and He always has a plan, for you, for mankind, for everything.
(2) We don’t quite know what God’s plans are expect what is revealed to us in the Scriptures.
(3) We should not arrogantly try to guess God’s reasons for the things He lets pass unless the Scripture explicitly states His reasons.
(4) Most important to this discussion: God kills people. Yes, He ordained the passing of 9/11. And Katrina.
– (4a) If God kills someone, there is always a reason.
– (4b) If God does not ordain the passing of an event, it simply won’t happen. Your free will gives you the will, but only God gives you the way.
– (4c) God’s means of killing people come in two main varieties: through men, and through nature. All were preconcieved before Genesis 1:1.
The suffering that God causes always happens for a reason. God is almighty, merciful, and just. God ordained the Fall of Man recorded in Genesis, and this is one event which we do not quite know why He ordained. In a way, I have to kind of agree with jesterballz that free will isn’t always an excuse for what comes to pass, but it is, at least, the main reason for suffering.
Can He? In a way, yes, but if you think He can just reach His hand right down and heal your wound, this is not going to happen if Jesus isn’t standing right in front of you. A man stranded in the middle of a desert, bleeding to death, is simply going to die whether God exists or not. Death is a fact of life, and God wouldn’t meddle with His perfect Laws of Nature just to save one little man. That’s why we have Heaven.
The next question is, would God necessarily want to stop all suffering? If someone is suffers, it was God’s will that he suffers, and there is a reason for this suffering. People suffered at the Columbine shooting at the hands of a depressive and a psychopath, and He didn’t save everyone from suffering no matter how good they had been in life — there is no “karma.” God’s intention, I presume, in that case was to make a point about school bullying. The bullying in that school was so severe that God needed to kill people for us to wake up and smell the suffering that happens in every high school across America.
Yes, assuming by ice-cream, you mean Heaven:
Matthew 5:10-11 (Sermon on the Mount). Note that Heaven is infinitely better than ice-cream.
Shadow said:
If you’re already all-knowing, I don’t think you need to experience anything.
After scrolling up and down a few times, the word logic seemed to turn up a lot to “disprove” God. Logic is useful, but it can’t prove anything. If God exists, then the logic to disprove Him would still exist, just as the logic to prove Him would exist, because logic is empty regarding matters of absolute truth. Logic is simply an element of an intelligent mind — grab an intelligent person, and he’ll “prove” anything. Logic, due to its nature, is indefinitely refutable, constrained only by the bounds of the language you speak.
iunno said:
Man’s fallen nature restricts his free will from worshiping God. It is only through the grace of Jesus Christ that a man can grasp the concept of and belief in God.
iunno also said:
You’re attempting to explain God’s reasons for His will without His or the Scripture’s help. This inevitably leads to egotistical arrogance, reversal of the humility (total depravity) required to be a complete Christian.
God does what He does, and we should not try to act as shamans of the pagan religions, trying to decipher “omens” and the like. The duty is ours; the outcome is God’s. Give charitably, love God, keep His commandments, and a nation will be blessed. Forget God, and your nation will be cursed. God has been long forgotten in America, leading to our current “president” (dictator).
For the Crown Rights of Jesus Christ,
The Crown Rights Patriot
P.S. The word argument has been misspelled as arguement on this webpage 11 times.
To add weight to your arguement, jester, I have a synopsis that may be helpful.
According to your blog, free will is one of the basic elements that disproves God’s existence and I
can take that a step further.
In order for the concept of free will to be valid, we must disregard the basic tenets of temporal
physics, that “time” itself does not exist. There is an easy way to support this, due to the fact
that time is a percieved concept rather than a legitimate force. If we did not exist, the concept
of time would not exist because we would not be there to mark the passage of said time.
Assuming that time does not exist, we now must move to the arguement that God has a grand plan. It
is said that God knows what has been, what is, and what shall be. If this is the case, then the
concept of free will becomes invalid. However, one could easily say that God simply alters his plan
based on the current flow of time and the actions of man and adjusts the flow of events to still
move toward an inevitable end. By doing this, however, God immediately invalidates the need for
free will as man’s actions would inexorably move toward the same end, regardless of what he does.
If God’s plan has no real end, merely milestones that mark the passage of time toward an undefined
end, then still God must make adjustments where He comes forth as the victor in whatever conflict
Armageddon falls under, and again, invalidates the concept of free will.
Assuming God has no plan, we can still invalidate free will and his existence by using the bible.
The concept of predestination dictates that we are constantly moving forward towards a
predetermined end that we cannot alter, nor avoid, due to the fact, it has already happened. If
this were to be correct, then we must question the need for our existence at all. In Revelations,
God wins. He has stated that He will cast Satan and all the demons into hell, thus attaining
victory. The problem is that the concept of free will does not allow for this statement to be
wholly accurate. It is possible, statistically, that this plan God has could come to pass in every
accounted form stated in the bible. Scientifically unlikely, but still possible. However, with the
chaotic nature of free will, not just in man, but in all things, living or not, there is a tendency
for expansion, and ideals and prophecies are no exceptions to the rule. Again this invalidates free
will.
Assuming that God is the sum of all things stated in the bible, the supported free will arguement
falls short yet once again when it placed before those facts. In order for free will to be correct,
God would have to fall short of perfection in some sense and therefore his entire position as God
would immedaitely be invalidated. If He is all the things described in the Bible, then it
immedaitely invalidates the concept of free will and your arguement, jester, remains correct.
Yet, there are things that do indeed bring support to the idea that God, or a god in some form,
exists. Just like the arguement that everything could fall into place as God would say it was going
to do, it is equally as unlikely that we could have evolved toward the state we exist in now,
especially if all things were left to chance. Science has already proven the likelyhood that we
exist because of the theory of evolution is a statistical impossibility. If this is the case, then
the weight of the arguement that God exists gains.
Assuming that we did not evolve to this point in time, there is still the unexplained things that
science cannot statistically monitor and thus, prove to be valid. Aliens, ghosts, paranormal
phenomenon of every sort, these elements have no supporting evidence to validate their existence
through evolution. This leaves only a supernatural force that would be beyond, but not necessarily
superior to, our existence.
Assuming that natural selection and supernatural forces did not put us here, then we are left with
nonterrestrial origination. While scientists and theologians alike try to adamantly strike down any
possibilities that an alien intelligence of some manner deposited us here, there is historical
evidence that can only be attributed to 2 possible forces. Alien Life or a Godform.
For God to exist, free will cannot. For free will to exist, God cannot. To further my synopsis, I
ask you to consider the concepts of good and evil. Like any concept that exists, it exists because
we can percieve it. We can acknowledge that it has happened and we can even define how, when,
where, why, and what. However, that is it where it ends. After we absorb the facts, we make a
determination of the results, passing judgement if you will, upon the event and whether or not its
effects are favorable.
God is defined as an absolute good, as I stated in a previous comment and I summarily disproved
that arguement. God cannot be an absolute good as his actions must have a negative impact upon
something. We may not immedaitely percieve the negative element, but I can prove that not only is
God not an absolute good, but I can also prove that he is responsible for the problems we have now
and in the past.
Albert, a previous commentor, announced that free will absolves God of sin, that because of our
actions here on earth, that He could not have sin in his heart. Shortly after the comment, I made
my case, and you be the judge. You can read my aforementioned comment above.
Now I offer further evidence that God is not an absolute good.
1. Barring the laws of physics, God created all things. Therefore no energy could be destroyed, nor
could any matter be turned to energy. The Heisenburg principle would be defunct in this situation.
2. Assuming that the animals did not require meat to survive in the Garden of Eden, and that plants
have no perception of existence, then we can assume that plants did not feel pain when their fruit
was plucked or their leaves eaten. ( if the plants in question could not percieve their own
destruction, then they would not be able to define what was happening as a negative event.)
3. Assuming that the “snake” was created by God, (At no point does the bible identify the snake as
Satan. In fact Satan does not appear in the Bible until the New Testament. Until that point, he is
referred to as the Devil. Yet, Revelations makes a distinction between Satan and the Devil.), we
also have to assume that God gave that creature all of its attributes and personality structure. It
is, after all, defined as “the most cunning of all creatures in the garden”. This would immedaitely
suggest a deceptive nature, a nature that could not have developed through mere circumstance. The
reason for this is that in order for something to be defined as good or evil, we must have a common
frame of reference to use as an example. The same thing occurs when we attempt to translate
languages that we do not natively speak. We must have a common frame of reference to identify
nouns, verbs, adjectives and so forth. Without this frame of reference, how would we know that
something is good or evil. Therefore, the available source of this “cunning” would have been God.
Again, even God would have to have a source of information to draw from in order to design the
animals and the humans and that same source would have provided the basis for emotional and mental
structuring in the humans and animals that inhabited the garden.
4. Assuming that the snake “naturally” developed this sense of cunning, we still face its tool for
bringing the fall of man. The tree in the garden. God himself is stated as creating that tree and
even identifies it as being a danger to Adam and Eve. This is the first instance of God’s inability
to be an absolute good. He created something that posed a threat. He identifies that threat,
therefore He must have prior knowledge of this threat and the danger it posed.
5. The remainder of time following the events that led to Adam and Eve being ejected from the
garden until this point of my writing, they are all a direct result of God creating the tree and
the snake that resided in the garden.
In order for an absolute good to exist, it must have no negative effects on existence, either
directly or indirectly. Millions have died over the centuries, many killed by those who follow this
God. For God to be an absolute good, these things could not have happened.
Interestingly, an absolute good would also invalidate the concept of free will as free will would
give rise to an inevitable negative event. To clarify, if a tree falls in the forest and there is
no one to hear it, we must still determine if it was a good thing. If we have to ask, then we must
acknowledge the possibility that it may not have been a good thing. If the tree fell over of its
own accord, then we could surmise that it was good thing. The tree wanted to do this. However, the
likelyhood that a tree would commit suicide and we would see it as a good thing is very, very low.
Jester, I do hope that this has proven to be helpful in your arguement against the existence of
God.
For everyone else, I submit this for your consideration:
Our reality is based upon our perceptions of the factual representations of that which we have come
to define as our reality. If we sit in a chair, we can physically know that the chair exists. After
that, everything that we apply to that chair becomes interpretation that is defined by how we
percieve that chair.
In the simplest terms, it is jester’s opinion that God does not exist. He believes this, and while
it may be an opinion, there is evidence to support it. It is a Christian’s opinion that God exists.
He believes this, and while it may be an opinion, there is still evidence to support it.
None of us, whether or not we choose to believe in a god, knows for absolute certainty that god
exists. We have never seen god, nor have we been able to percieve the aforementioned god in a way
that is purely physical and not subject to pure opinionated interpretation. We can only exercise
our basic need to believe in something. That is focal point of faith. It has no basis in our
physical reality. Only in our hearts.
And because we do not know for absolute certainty, I ask you to answer this simple question:
If two beings of a supernatural existence appeared before you, both claiming to be God and both
claiming that other was the Devil, could you prove which was God and which was not?
(to make answering this harder, try figuring this one out: we are told that the Devil is the Father
of Lies, so how do you know that the Bible was not written by him?)
shadowreign666@gmail.com
I apologize for the presentation of my previous comment. I wrote it in notepad and did a direct copy / paste. I failed to take into consideration formatting issues.
crownsrightpatriot:
Would you not agree though, this is our right and our perogative to question God and his nature?
If I were to decide the fate of my soul based on the loose, misinterpreted doctrine that you support, I would be a fool. Not that I am calling you a fool.
I am calling the irrational decision foolish.
Faith is subject to very same logical reasoning that anything else in existence is subject to and just because we have at our disposal a collection of books that detail this path to salvation does not necessarily make it the right choice.
For 3500 years, the Egyptians believed they were the center of civilization and that they would never fall. Like many Christians, they felt they were just as right as you say you are today.
Despite my feelings about Christians, (i’ll not hide it. I don’t like them, but I respect their choice to believe what they will,), I’ll not say they are wrong about what they believe. I will say they are wrong about how they interpret it. Not every Christian is subject to this statement I’m about to make, but blind faith is dangerous tool that many Christians use to undermine the very free will that they so cherish.
You say that it man’s choice to have free will, and yet you would tell a homosexual that he has no right to marriage when the Christian community has enough troubles staying the course with marriage as it is.
You say it’s man’s choice to have free will, but then you’ll tell someone they can’t decide how to treat their own bodies as if you have some superior status of knowledge that gives you reason to do so.
And remember, to quote your line:
Man’s fallen nature restricts his free will from worshiping God.
It was God who made that happen. You believe in predestination. Tell me He didn’t make that happen. He wanted it to.
He wanted the suffering of millions in the holocaust. This cannot be denied.
Why?
To say that He didn’t want it to happen is to say that His grand plan had flaws which would immediately undermine the status of perfection that you endow Him with.
To say that He did….
There is one final statement I will make.
iunno: I do not belittle your experiences (regarding the healing), but I ask you.
I have experienced similar things in my life, and I attribute them to the gods that I follow. I fervently believe they were the reason I made it through those times.
So why should I be automatically wrong for attributing those experiences to what would be termed “incarnations of the Devils,” or fill in the blank, but when it happens to a Christian, they never question it.
dude you are completely wrong (the guy whonwrote this)….islam has an answer for all of those points, let me tell you
1.obviusly, he exists.
2.obviously he is all powerful, hence he being a god
3.he is all good in the sense that he want people to refrain from bad thing, and doesnt entice them towards them . he has also caused the bad things on this world
4.if by good beings you mean good muslims, then youre wrong…it is clearly stated in the quran that anything that happens to you on this world is by your own hand….being a good believer has no interference at all in this world…for all thats worth here you could be raped a thousand time s and tortured to death….this world is for gaining entry to the next world, and that is all
5.if by goo beings you mean humans, then not necessarily, its their choice. if you mean god then no he wont necessarily stop it becase its their for a reson (explained later)
6.he isnt oppose dot it he causes it
7.obviously he can, hence the day of jundgement and entry into heaven.
8.no he wont. he wil for those who stayed true to religion.
9.hell yeah
10.hell no
the reson suffering is heere is because of humans not god. everything bad is caused by us. africans are dying of aids cause they have so much sex, not because of gods. children are born ill because humans have sex, not because of god. its not the childs fault, its the parents. they will be punished. and the child can be considered lucky to not have to experience this world that you see so much fault in. he will go to heaven (said).the person wil get hit by a bus if hes stupid enough to not check. if someone runs him over he will have compensation in the next life (a MUCH bigger and better compensation).
so if you can give me proper replys to these arguements i will completely beleive them. give it a try
2.
Challenge God and ask him to reveal himself to you.
There those who belive in magic and there those who belive in facts.
luffy, it is YOU who needs proper replies to these arguments…
You state “obviously [god] exists”. How about offering anything about why you feel that is true… you can’t just claim that he exists and blindly ignore the rest of the argument.
“2.obviously he is all powerful, hence he being a god”
What Jesterballz and Shadow have argued is that he is not all powerful, because free will and all-powerfulness is mutually exclusive… Provide some evidence to the contrary.
“3.he is all good in the sense that he want people to refrain from bad thing, and doesnt entice them towards them . he has also caused the bad things on this world”
If you’ve read the bible you mustn’t have gotten far.. You know, that whole story with Adam and Eve. God making the tree in the MIDDLE OF THE WHOLE GARDEN, with a snake there to TEMPT and “ENTICE” them to eat the apple…
“for all thats worth here you could be raped a thousand time s and tortured to death”
In that case I propose we torture all religious types because they obviously don’t mind…
“9.hell yeah
10.hell no”
Am I meant to take this as a form of argument? Because it’s quite weak really.
“africans are dying of aids cause they have so much sex”
Single most ignorant thing I have ever read. Period.
“children are born ill because humans have sex, not because of god. its not the childs fault, its the parents. they will be punished.”
I have a few qualms with this argument.
You see, if god created us, and wanted us to reproduce (you know, “go forth and multiply”) the I think he knows that the ONLY WAY WE CAN REPRODUCE IS THROUGH SEX. Otherwise we would have died out long ago, you know that?
Also, how is it the child’s fault that his parents “sinned” He could not do anything about that, and he did not sin himself. Where’s the free will in that?
Are you willing to completely believe them now? Didn’t think so…
Shadow
Thank you for your insights, allow me to share with you my own. You have created your premises of the nonexistence possibility of God in the light of opening the eyes of those who follow religion blindly and do not hear out the possible truths than could circumvent their beliefs.
To open ones mind to possibility is one thing, to open possibilty to ones mind is something else entirely. To acknowledge and oppose something, even something that you refutes existence, is to develop a notion of that thing. God need not be a notion or a concept. Ill tell you why. If you wish above all else, to know the truth rather than to simply prove wrong the masses or to make a name for yourself then you must ask to know the truth. How do you ask for the truth?
It is simple. The truth is free of notion and concept, label and dualistic perception. To place your hand upon a burning stove is to say “Ouch hot!”. There is no cold, only hot, in that moment. In this moment as you read this passage, in your mind there is no god and in your heart there is no hope for one to show himself. That is because you have chosen to remain with your hand upon the burner. You are a Shadow who explains life by his experience. If you are indeed truly open minded, one who can embrace the truth, then attempt this. Write next the “Possibility without a God” and prove why it is only possible that a god does indeed exist. A man who is open minded can write both papers. If however you are only capable of experiencing one point of view, of proving one side of an argument, then you are simply the devils advocate in a long standing debate.
Debates aside, we are one, connected and at the same time seperate, all notions of our perceptions, obscuring us from the truth. To see one, is to become one. To stop believing in God and starting knowing God is to embrace that which you belonged to all along.
u guys r stupid, god exists. There would be no way of explaining our existence if he didnt exist. We are not able to see him but we know he exists in some form, just because we cant see something doesnt mean it doesnt exist. You cannot see the shape of pain but we know pain does exist. therefore i rest my case he does exist.
I aint no god botherer
I aint no god Botherers Son
The god Botherers can do the god botherin
’til all the god Botherin’s done!
what really peeves me is the way god botherers bother me with all their god botherin’
another thing with god botherers is that they know everything just like their god.
get over it goddies god is a construct like so many monuments, created by people who cannot accept mortality.
So don’t bother with me, god botherers
honestly I don’t know why you bother
and don’t patronise with any of that faith guff,
religion is a distraction from the reality of existence, and don’t give me that rap about some guy called jesus christ, do you know how many so called prophets have walked the earth? and the whole idea of calling your book “The Book” more people have read “Hairy Porker” oops I mean Harry Potter both ripping yarns at best will be funny if potter ends up as “The Book” in the future. We are born we live then we die. It’s that simple.
He_exists,
I cannot see leprechauns dancing across the computer desk. Therefore they are there, and do exist.
Curfew Gull,
Right on.
Interesting…..theory, I know you won’t believe me but the reason suffering exisit is because God is righteous, merciful, and fair. Satan is in control of the current world until Jesus comes back, that means everything ungodly is in control unless God specifically wants something to not happen or happen, like divine protection or healing. Satan was the leading angel of all angels in design but he became arrogant and prideful and wanted more power to become God. Satan knew or thought that if he could make man fall with him than surely God would allow sin to happen on the earth, allowing satan to be in charge. So God decided he was going to allow satan to continue his path of descruction so that God could be fair and just to give satan eternal punishment. I know what your saying, why dosent God just destroy him here and now instead of waiting, because God plays by God’s rules, how can God be Good all the time if God is not Good all the time? So the Ten commandments come into play for the Jewish nation, to show the world how sinful it is and no matter how much you try you can never follow it, ah but not all is lost my friends. Satan thinking he had total control over the souls of the world because God could not accept them for their sinful nature was quite pleased. But then Jesus jumped on the scene, Jesus was God made manafest as a man. The son of man, Son of God. Born of the holy spirit and from the seed of woman. This perfect man/God died for our sins and rose again and currently rules heaven and the universe bigger than I can comprehend until the father says it’s time to go back to earth and set up the godly kingdom and kick satan out. Jesus defeated satan at the cross and died for our imperfections, and lived a perfect life for us. When you make Jesus your ruler of your life you constantly have choices to make, its freewill to do good or evil. no ones perfect and God loves us anyway. I am not encouraging sinful behavoir I am saying don’t stress out about rules and regulations and just worship Jesus for defeating the enemy and love others for their imperfections. When the time comes and satan has EARNED his eternal punishment Jesus will come back, set up the kingdom, give those who have the holy spirit glorified bodies that never die and never think about sinning just like Jesus, but we will still have our personalities, satan will be imprisoned for 1000 years and the nations will pay tribute to the nation of God, with Jesus being high priest or king of the kings. After 1000 years satan will have one last chance to either obey God or try again for one final assault on the kingdom using the other nations. At this time God will destroy them before they even get to the gates! Of course satan won’t believe this, which is why I feel sorry for him, but it may also be why he hates me so much. Oh yeah and a few other things. The rapture is not what people think, it’s to take the sinners off of the world for the children of God. The rapture theory was made up in the 18th century by a 14 year old girl who told people they wouldnt have to suffer if they serve god, satan is going to make you suffer trust me, but God will never allow more than you can handle!Another truth is the pugatory theory, thats not true either, the only surefire way to get into heaven free is either being an unborn child or dying at too young an age to comprehend the message of the bible, or likewise having an imcomplete mind. You can’t work your way out of hell, you shouldn’t want to anyway since salvation is free but faith without action will not save. It’s hard to find a good group of christians to hang with, epescially real ones. Somehow I’m blessed to have truth seekers as friends, I would have not even bothered to read the bible had i thought the only thing there was was heaven and hell. yay whooptodo, everything just continues in a circle on earth forever, even the blind can see thats impossible! Then I learned that the meek shall inherit the earth and I just wanted to know more and more. So all I can say is if you seek the truth you shall find, even when all you know is just a tiny bit. PEACE!
ok first off, i think you have some things correct, thoe the main thing i disagree with is this “god is good” idea, if god exists and he is the creator of all then, did he not create both?, notice i am refering to god as a male, only because i have had this idea burnt into my mind by my family friends and the mass media. I belive god is being misiturpred in most organised religons, my person belive is that god is the space between the atoms, god is the common bond that we as a species holds on to because this first idea,this source of so much that drives us as a people. God is the what our “spiritual” side returns to after our material vesel decays. Stop thinking that there is good an evil, because we are stuck in this cycle, duality. From what little have learnt in my 21 years on this planet, I belive the only way we as a people, as the human race can survive is if we relize that the only way is both, balance between what is percived as good and what is evil….. my 2 cents
HollowByMyself,
It is amazing that you take all you believe from one, incredibly dodgy, book. Why don’t you try thinking for yourself and stop preaching what is no more believable than taking Harry Potter as truth. The only difference is that the bible is older. Well guess what, in 10000 years, the 1700ish year dif wont mean much!
“Hollow by myself” you should go see a taxidermist
you are one sick fish who is this satin cat? I mean has anybody ever seen this turkey? or are you just making all this stuff up? like all the other god storytelling god awful donkey assed godluvers
If god exists who created him? Why is he hiding himself so systematically?What is he (the powerfull)afraid of? Why science is completely unable to find him or any evidence of his existence? Why “gods” and “profets” etc. disappear more and more as humanity progresses, especially in civilizations and countries where scientific knowledge advances. If “god” had any real interfere with matter we should know it immediatly. So, even the professionals of religion (people earning their life selling “god”) speak about something unable to iterfere with us or any other kind of matter, something with not any quality. No power, no love,no justice not any human quality as well as not any non-human quality wich means nothing. God=nothing and a “nothing” that cannot be desribed, so completely useles to us …Then why respect for him? why paying priests? Do we continue the stupidity of primitifs exloited by the “magician” ?
wow..u r really stupid. some argument.
before u critizise something, its only fair u understand it fully, inside and outside..and me thinks u know nothing about religion. i dont blame u..
Umm Gary,
Would you please explain which part is stupid?
God is “definately indefinite”… immesurable… or “the all” … the only element of all life with no root or cause
somewhere in the universe and life there had to be something without a cause (rebels “re”-”bel”) and that idea is summarized by god or allah or whatever
obviously the bible isnt where it begins but where it ends
just a thought… now freeyourselves
Approaching God with logic is at best a thought excercise. There’s no actual answer in which we could “prove” things towards either way.The best minds of thousands of centuries have comtemplated it.
Your arguement is has logic fallacies all thoughout it, as well as shadow’s. I could point them out, and then you could offer counter arguements. We’d eventually get to a stalemate. In the end we’d just sit here reaffirmed in our own beliefs, while really, not knowing anything for sure.
I do find your statement, “strongly refute” to be overly and maybe even overtly inflammatory. Your word choice thoughout this article hints at an undercurrent of anGRRRR. Perhaps your latent animosity towards the the suggestion of a god is a manifestation of repressed anger at an authority figure, a church, or mother\father? Before turning contemplating outwards, we should first look within. How can we expect to know the external if the apparatus we use is not in harmony? It’s like the Greeks said, know thyself!
There is no God. There is something powerful out there similar to what we call god, or else we wouldn’t exist today, but whatever that is, the human race, as intelligent as we are, will never be able to find that out because it is not meant for humans to know what created us, or else we would know. That’s just what I believe, that’s my opinion. You can disagree if you want, but to me what I said above makes the most sense opposed to believing in something that never did anything to prove that it exists, at least in our lifetime. I find it silly to believe something that only man has claimed happened over 2000 years ago.
Jurny jimbo jethroane,
Of course there is anger within me. But thankyou for stating the blatantly obviously. How could I not be angry at the present situation of everything in the world that has been screwed up by religion. Practically every single conflict is magnified, if not caused, by religion. Look at the current US administration. Repressed? Just wait for my next posts.
You say about why god leaves those suffering and inoccent children who starve etc.. Well if every human who is “capable” of giving 2.5% of there earnings every year to such poor people then there will be no more poor people left on earth.
Imagine people like bill gates, david beckham, M Jackson and all the multi rich celebs and i mean every single one (rather than being greedy), if they gave 2.5% of charity to poor there will be no poor people on this earth.
As for the existance of God! there is a creator behind every thing. Look at the billions of creatures on planet earth and yet those still to discover. where did they come from “mother nature”?
Where did mother nature come from. Atoms and the rest of the stuff; air, water, space, galaxies, other planets, the orbiting of the sun the moon and earth the accuracy of such orbits. The rising and setting of the sun.???? wake up people, dont fool ur selves and others around u and stop being narrow minded.
We cant blame god for the bad things we do in life and neither the illnesses on this earth. As these are from our own doings illnesses passed on to each other sexually or other ways.
if you beleive in evolution then go to this link:
http://www.harunyahya.com/ara.php
ahh someone sounds bitter? Are you suffering? things not going right for you? Is your life not turning out the way you wanted it to or how you planned? Most people who do not belive in GOD deal with things of that sort actually everyone deals with those same situations but the people who let the spiritual enemy take over come to these conclusions and very quickly. Why would you blame GOD for all the sufferings and bad things in the world? You ackowledge GOD, do you not acknowledge satan? He is probally the one you should be blaming. Understanding why things are the way they are or why bad things happen to people really takes experience with GOD and spirituality and getting in touch with GOD almighty. I seriously doubt that you have spent time searching for GOD lets say um the way archiologist spend researching and searching for artifacts or as a treasure hunter would when looking for sunkin treasure. Seek and you shall find. It takes years of research and actual praying and seeking after GOD almighty for you to truly start understanding his ways and what he is doing in our lives and how he works. From experience i feel GoD allows bad and even teerible things to happen to us so we can learn and grow spiritually and thats how you got to look at it and then will you start to see and understand. I have had crazy spiritual experiences and thats all i need even though i have always believed in GOD and i belive that i had those experiences to strengthen my faith and uplift me spiritualy. I wish GOD would deal with everyone the way he does with me cause people who make fast decisions on GoD not existing would stop before they said alot of things. Im sure GOD would work with other people the same way if they only sought him with all thier hearts. All i can say is really truely search for GoD and you will find him without a doubt and i mean praying going to church and thats only to staudy his word and build strength cause thier is strength in numbers and thats when and how you shall find him. I’m just speaking from experience. listening to this guy who comes out on tv would be a very good start. This man of GOD is really in touch with GOD lol and its funny cause thats the name of his ministry. http://www.intouchministries.com
Give GOD a try and donnt let the opportunity to get to know him pass you bye. Now is not the time.
Good look with your search and spiritual journey. I’m sure you will see learn and go though alot i know i have. If i can help you in any way i am here. Just shoot and email with any questions or whatever it is you may need.
God bless you brother
well said mate. What the Quran says of such people.
Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path)
Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur)
Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!
You can also go to this link:http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html
DemonUmpire,
I’m sorry, but you have just made a really crappy comment.
The 2.5 percent theory is a nice one. But do you really think that the starving children should be punished for greedy peoples’ actions? Well Bill Gates does give a lot of moneyto AIDS and Michael Jackson is actually practically broke, but that is beside the point.
How can you just assert that God exists. What, if you don’t understand something, it must have some ridiculous supernatural explanation behind it? Ok, i’m looking at the “billions” of creatures. What are you talking about? They “came from” evolution. Where did mother nature come from? Who is mother nature. I am quite sure you just made that up.
Me narrow minded? You can’t wrap your head around the setting of the sun. The earth is turning. OK? To put it simply, there was a BIG BANG about 42 billion years ago. That created the universe. There was a whole lot of hydrogen and helium floating around, and a lot of chemical reactions went on for a couple of billion years, eventually resulting in life popping up. And don’t say that there would be a zillion to on shot of that. Of course it is unlikely. But there are a lot of planets out there.
Finally, DemonUmpire, you have double standards. You first claim that God created everything, and everything is explained by God. But then you claim that humans are at fault for “bad things in life”. I suppose that comet hitting earth and crushing a thousand children is our fault then.
Forgive the phrase, but…
Oh….. my….. God….
I can’t believe people are still debating this, after a so-called ‘Age of Enlightenment’.
There is a reason kids usually find out eventually that there is no Santa Claus, or Easter Bunny/Tooth fairy, etc… It’s because they don’t.
To me, any Theistic religion is simply a case of refusing to grow up and accept that the universe simply exists because it can.
To take any kind of fictitious book too seriously just stinks of an inferiority complex, and possibly even psychosis.
Existence of Universe – Quantum/Chaos theory
Existence of Man – Evolution
I love the explaination for Dinosaurs by some religious folks…. God put the fossils there as a test.
As Bill Hicks said, I don’t really like the idea of a God that wants to fuck with our heads.
I’m just dying to see the missing pages from the beginning of the bible, when they finally find them..
“Dedicated to my darling Denise,
All characters and events are puely fictitious, and any resemblance to those living or dead, are unintentional”
(This is not my idea, by the way, it’s a paraphrase of an old Red Dwarf episode)
The link below is worth a look
http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_p5_01.php
dudius,
I agree with everything, but please don’t butcher Red Dwarf quotes.
if we had no pain and suffering then people wud not look 4 god. As 4 innocent children suffering, the answer 2 that is simple. It is due 2 human error and mans wrong doings. Children in India are starving because the british robbed them of ther wealth etc. Its like a snowball effect, wat happens in history still affects the world 2day.
jesterballz
Thanks for reply i beleive in the BIG BANG! but who created the big bang.
Go for it goddy boyo
go for it one more time
swill it like the swine
swill it so bovine
you aint got the spine
to be of the equine
your little goddy ways
so many black unholy days
you foul my water so
go blowfish dulce doe
I agree please don’t butcher Red Dwarf quotes! Thanks
Sorry, Jesterballz, been over ten years since I saw that particular episode, so I couldn’t remember it verbatum.
As to who created the big bang, I believe the current thinking is a random collision of sub-atomic particles (tachyons, et al), which, if taking place in real-time would have taken many trillions of years, but, as time didn’t really exist then, seemed pretty instant….
dudius
and who created these sub-atomic particles, which created the BIG BANG?
This is a never ending cycle, so please explain who created your god?
Not entering into the debate with regards God’s existence or otherwise, but I just thought you might like this quote (from Robert Griffiths, a member of U.S. Academy of Sciences) which I personally found quite amusing:
“If we need an atheist for a debate, I’d go to the philosophy department — the physics department isn’t much use.”
Oh, dear….
Chicken-and-egg time….
Egg came before the chicken. Dinosaurs laid eggs…
junaman
The whole idea is to prove gods existance! As to whom created? No one did, as God is one, there is no other. In Islam we call God “Allah”.
Although God is not the appropriate transalation to the Arabic word Allah. As with God you can add God’s, Goddess, Godfather, Godmother (this then makes it more than 1 god). With the Arabic word Allah you can only say Allah.
Say: He is Allah, The One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, Nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.”
I think the chicken came first and then the egg was layed, but then the egg must have come first as the chicken hatched out of the egg.
LOL
If you can say that no one created god, I can use the same analogy with any question you ask me about micro-particles… no less proof, except that we know micro-particles exist…
A prophet called Jesus Christ came up with the God idea. A failed chicken coop carpenter he annoyed the crap out of everybody to such a degree that in the finish he was made to sit atop a chicken perch and was then incarcerated in a chicken house of his own making on sunday he rolled the egg away from the door and made his escape and that’s were that chicken and the egg thing started…
Go to the link below, which will explain the lot. Forgive me if i’ve upset anyone. Respect
I’m off to play Pro Evolution Soccer 6 now. Nice chatting.
http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_p2_01.php#3
If you say that nothing is God’s fault now, it is all the fault of man, all you are left with is that he created the universe. Some “all powerful” god he is…
hmmm that was a long and intresting thread…
i dont think god is any one much different from u and me. he isnt promising good life and happy joyride to any one…
nor do i belive in heaven and earth…
but i still belive in God… hmm why?
my question started with the question of life… like in Matrix whats the purpose of life why am i born …. and only thing i could think is am here to become god…
ya i know sounds funny… but reason is am just a person have to improve have to move in life… have to attain that oness with the person…
so scietifically am Mass and getting converted into energy…
antz_x@rediffmail.com
Ok, got one for you. How do you come to the conclusion that God or a “good” God is opposed to suffering?
Since your whole argument hinges upon this, your assumption has to be correct or your argument breaks down.
Let me know how you come to the conclusion that a good God is opposed to suffering…
Love posts like this!
-j
Religion is nothing more than control, when the bible was created there was no need for “leaders” or kings and queens (or whatever) so what better way to contlrol the masses than a big alseing god in the sky who will punish you for going angainst his will!!
Secondly, who wrote the bible? hhhmmm, yes it was MEN! and what is one thing man has done consistantly since the begining of time? thats right LIE!
“A popular argument against this one, is that “God gave us free will”. Well this argument is utterly useless and completely refutable. Consider those thousands of children who starve in developing nations. How could anyone justify this as free will? And if you believe that it is the fault of human beings, then explain to me how an all good being could justify an innocent child being born into this situation. Is it that child’s fault?”
Exactly!for example, is the vatican not a major part of religion? Does the vatican not have enough money to lift all these people out of the situation they’r in? of course they do, so if they’r so good and righteous why no help people?
well because its a business and good business’ cant give all they’r money away can they!!!!
(even thought they could never run out of money!)
it is so blindingly obvious religion is fake that i sometimes wonder if there truely is “FREE WILL” im not saying there’s no “god” who knows as stated you wont know til you die, but every relgion is nothing more than lies created for control, be it muslim, christian, whatever!
Look just because suffering exists does not mean that God does not exist. Islam teaches us that this life is a test for everyone to see if we listen to God, follow him completely, submit to his will and if we did then the world would be a better place and so much of what is happening would not happen because we would all be listening to God. That does not mean however that suffering will not exist. Islam teaches us that God will test us through suffering, loss, hardship etc. I understand when you say that because there is suffering there is no God because if there was a God he wouldn’t let it happen or would stop it, but then what would be the purpose of our existence? God could make us all exactly the same (which he can), but then what would be the point. And I urge you to think a little outside the box, think about things like accountability and justice and mercy. If there wasnt a God that would mean that people who murder, rape, steal, or continously hurt others would get away with it. What is the point of being pious what is the point of being good to each other? Without a belief that one day we will be held accountable for our actions most people wouldn’t care about the way in which they acted. And what about people who are suffering? wouldnt it be absolutley crazy if there was no respite for them in the hereafter for all their hardship? For myself I refuse to believe that there is no God because that would mean that my life is meaningless because their is no accountability in the world.
By the way, thank you for approaching this topic and presenting your views with such civility.
bereans,
Me saying that God is opposed to suffering is not an assumption. It is logically attained from steps 3 and 4.
3. God is all good
4. All good beings are opposed to suffering
So you must find something wrong with either of these. As 3 is the belief of Christians like you, 4 must be you problem. Now I believe “all good” means that you would be opposed to anything bad. Do you disagree? Or do you believe that suffering isn’t bad?
oh and as for that argument about free will and children starving, I used to think the same thing too, i mean its not like those kids did anything, but then you have to understand that such suffering is a test for us, people who can do something about it, because God has given us the money and the means, so he tests whether or not we will use that money and those things that he has given us to help those he hasnt given it too.
hi, and first of all sorry for the poor english.
1 Someone stated before that religion is a matter of faith.
( “One cannot debate the existence of god because the very principle of god is a faith based principle. It is not determined by facts or evidence. In order to believe in something, one must have “faith” that the god or goddess exists”).
Therefore, those who believe do not need to demonstrate nothing. Regarding children that suffer in Africa and people hit by busses the answer that comes from the church is simple: we do not have the power of understanding (to explain logically) the acts of God. As simple human beings we cannot understand the acts of God and therefore cannot judge anything.
2 One of the most important arguments coming from religious people is: God exists because we exist…because the universe exists.
3. Bearing in mind 1 (those who believe do not need to demonstrate nothing) its up to the atheists to explain the existence of universe in absence of God. For the moment they can not. All you (atheists and skeptics) are doing now is just making other atheists or skeptics feel confortable.
everythingiseventual,
You cannot justify saying “We need God, therefore he exists.” No matter how badly someone needs something, it doesn’t make it happen. You are arguing about something different – the morality of religious beliefs. I am talking about God actually exists. For the record, I am an atheist and I have never murdered, raped or stolen anything. Except for maybe online music… But don’t tell me that believing in God stops people doing these things.
You “refuse to believe that there is no God”. I think you are the one who should think outside the box. But that is what religion is all about right? Fearing the fact that this is all there is; humans – birth, life, death. And there is a little thing called the prison system.
ps. What about the starving children. Where is the accountability there? And don’t tell me a life-time of suffering can be justified by going to heaven.
THERE is no damn god religions are made to keep people stupid and under control all that bullshit about christ and muhammed are nonsense how can there be different gods for every religion ask a brown man he has like 200 gods ask a greek he has 12 you know this shit is fucked to the max so pls dont nobody give that bullshit about god cause he never done anything for you (for sure) so why u believe in something that dosent even exist.(WASTING YOUR DAMN TIME)
bogdan,
How can you say that we cannot explain the existence of the universe? Have you ever heard of the Big Bang Theory. Quantum theory?
what is the purpose of life?
there must be a purpose, right! we cant just be here on erath to eat drink shit an sleep. for every action there is a reaction. for every creation there is a creator! this creator is God or Allah as i would like to refer to as Allah cannot be pluralised or cannot be changed to a female version unlike god (godess, gods etc).
the main purpose for life is as below,
if i giv you £10 what would you say? (thanks i hope, and im sure u would say it too)
so therefore, as we have been given this world, arms to use,legs to walk, brain to think, sight to see the world. families, emotion, heart, feelings, sense etc so therefore should we not be thankful to the creator? yes! this thanks for Muslims is in the form of Sallah which is Prayer.
it is illogical to think that we are here on this erath for no reason.
i do not believe in god, i have a housemate who does and whenever it comes up this is what the discussion contains, anyone who can answer feel free
1.dinosaurs, evolution, wtf?!
2.when the bible was translated from latin there was only a handfull of people in the world who could translate, so are we just to take this as gospel(maybe not an appropriate phrase)
3.so many religions all with the belief they’re right, can’t all be right, surely
4.and just a few pet hates of mine, jesus fed 5000 people with 2 fish and some loaves of bread, jonah lived in a whale for what, 5 days, and the old contradictions, an eye for an eye blah blah, i could go on but i won’t,
basically i don’t care if someone believes in god, although i do think it is a little bit of a copout, it is when it directly affects me thats when i have a problem like someone preaching at me, i don’t go around shouting from the rooftops that i don’t believe in god so why should they, double standards people, double standards, i know i cannot use this for all religion believers but the majority of people i’ve met with strong beliefs are ignorant, rude and only want to listen to their side of the story, sorry i’ve been ranting had to get that out
OK, let me start by saying I have no particular religious affiliations. I used to but I started thinking for myself regarding these things and have come to my own conclusions.
However I do feel compelled to comment on the original post here as it rings false to me for various reasons.
First of all, you are defining “good” according to your perspective. As that is a personal definition it is a rather shaky one to base an argument on. Whats good for some people is not good for others, and some would say that suffering builds character. To exclude suffering from the world would make evolution kind of pointless.
This follows on to another thing that a lot of people who “believe” there is no god ( You can’t possibly know there is no god) do not tend to give much thought to when they say, “Why isnt god fixing my life or the life of others who are having trouble?”, And that is that if we are gods children, maybe he wants independant, strong and self determining children. If anyone here has kids, they should know that you don’t just give a child anything it wants because it asks or thinks it needs it.
I think there are a lot of people who have rejected judeo/christian theology based on personal experiences they have had related to pastors/teachers at thier particular church. There are plenty of people around who will come up with thier own theology based on thier interpretation of the scriptures, then use that to gather power over people who may be less versed in said scriptures and afraid of doing the wrog thing. This sort of thing is wrong I believe, and damages the lives of many. But just because there is “evil in the world is not proof that there is no god.
Personally I believe there is a god, and that it operates at a level that would not intervene in human destiny. The teachings of most organised religion are tapping into something that many people can feel that is divine, then using that to exert social order and control. And some people need that. But please dont presume that you can “prove” that there is no god with such simple and childlike logic.
No one can prove there is no god, otherwise smarter people would have done it a much longer time ago.
so the whole premise here is that there is suffering so there can’t be a God. While i’ll admit that most Christian religions would be confused by that statement it’s incorrect to say all. One believes that suffering as most people know can have one of 2 effects, either building up or tearing down. Whether we admit it or not 9 times out of 10 its up to us how we want to respond to a trial. The trial or suffering or whatever you want to call it is like a refiners fire. Admittedly some people seem to be dramatically overburdened while it’s hard to say exactly why this is, it might be due to the fact that everytime man went and screwed up God fixed it would in fact lower suffering but it would also destroy responsibility for ones actions. Ahh. i’m out of time and have more to say. maybe later
Jeremiah 32:35 “…in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through [the fire] to Mo′lech, a thing that I did not command them, neither did it come up into my heart to do this detestable thing” That was God talking, people used to sacrifice children to Baal (or Molech). God said that such a thing was not in His “heart” (which always leaves me not understanding the teaching of Hellfire). Someone said that sin was with God. If they knew God they would know that this is wrong because the bible teaches in James 1:12 that with “evil things God cannot be tried”.
I use the Bible because everyone as sincere they are uses thier own theories to discuss God but have tended to stay away from mentioning the Bible, which is the authority on these matters, and the Word of God. Why is the Bible of value today? Well because it is. Before anyone starts another post talking about the Bible being just written by man, I want you to SERIOUSLY do some research. Look into Bible prophecy, see for yourself that at no time could man of been involved in this alone if prophecy is true. I can never be proved wrong on this people attack people and other religions and thier interpretations on scripture and how they lives are led in accordance to thier teachings and that’s fair enough, I have no argument against that. But Bible prophecy, the Bible’s historical accuracy. It cannot be proved wrong, but see for yourself.
By the way, do you want to know how old God is?
Psalms 90:2
Read God’s word…
I will not type much. I will also not take much of your time. If you ignore this and don’t follow the link you will miss out on a lot. I urge you to follow it and not just ignore it. I guarantee that it will be enlightining and thought provoking. It is the only truth. Please try the link you have nothing to lose right?
http://english.islamway.com/bindex.php?section=all_article&topicid=47
copy it into your browser’s adress bar.
Hehehe.
[quote]
1. Assume God exists.
2. God is all powerful
3. God is all good
4. All good beings are opposed to suffering
5. All good beings who are able stop suffering will do so immediately
6. God is opposed to suffering (from 3 and 4)
7. God can stop suffering completely and immediately (from 2)
8. God will eliminate suffering completely and immediately (6 and 7)
9. Suffering exists
10. Therefore, God does not exist (8 and 9)
[/quote]
1.) Yes
2.) Yes
3.) Yes
4.) No. You do not know this, you cannot prove this and “good” is a relative concept. The only absolute component of good is “not doing evil”.
5.) Flawed premise. Not all good people will do things immediately. Black and white does not work. Funny how you laugh at blogs but when one supports your viewpoint, it’s the holy grail.
6.) Flawed premise. See 5.). An all powerful God is just that, all powerful. Free to do whatever the fuck “he” likes.
7.) Yes. But we don’t know his motives.
8.) No. We do not understand his motives. This clashes with the concept of free will. You do not interfere with free will. God doesn’t. It would not be free, otherwise.
9.) Thanks, sherlock.
10.) Flawed premise. See previous points.
Next paragraph:
[quote]
A popular argument against this one, is that “God gave us free will”. Well this argument is utterly useless and completely refutable. Consider those thousands of children who starve in developing nations. How could anyone justify this as free will? And if you believe that it is the fault of human beings, then explain to me how an all good being could justify an innocent child being born into this situation. Is it that child’s fault?
[/quote]
Appeal to emotion. I do not give a flying fuck about a thousand children starving in Africa (actually I do, but for the duration of this post, I don’t). This is an example of free will given to the leaders of the country, who accepted ludicrous loans and mortgages from the IMF and World Bank, which formed out of the free will of capitalistic idiots. Who also had free will. Whose mothers had free will. And so on, ad infinitum.
Next:
[quote]
Or if a person is crossing the road, and gets randomly hit by a bus. How does this in any way constitute free will?
Finally, a person is born with a particularly painful and severe disease. If this has happened, explain to me how there could possibly be an all powerful, all knowing, all good being out there?
Again, I am not a Christian hater. I am simply offering a debate on the possible existence of your god. I welcome civilised argument in the comments.
[/quote]
1.) The person crossed in front of their bus as a result of their free will, or if being held at gunpoint, as the result of someone else’s free will. Likewise, the bus driver had free will, but he did not have superhuman reflexes and the magic schoolbus at his hands.
2.) A genetically deficient male stuck his penis into a genetically deficient female OUT OF FREE WILL, and the rest is history.
3.) Easy. Logical fallacies do not constitute a valid argument. Thank you, come again.
By the way Jesterballs, you mention the big bang, and while it is a very likely theory, it is still a theory, and no one has been able to explain what happened before the big bang, where did the proto atom come from, why did it destabalise etc.
Also, regarding quantum mechanics theory, again, a theory which everyone knows is not wholly true anyways as it does not include gravitational interactions, try reading up on Heim Theory for something a little closer to the mark.
I dont object to you having these opinions, I do object to you presuming to shed some light on the whole subject of whether peoples idea of god exists or not, when you dont actually provide any information on the subject.
Well i’ve read some crap in my time,but this takes the biscuit.There is no god we evolved from bacteria in the primordial soup of life .we are just a bunch of microbes clinging together for life.religion was formed to give sad sacks an loley bums hope for the future.If you really knew the pain and suffering of life would you want to live it i doubt it very much.How many people in ur familie have died how many loved ones have u seen pass away it ain’t religius its life .all the suffering and pain on this planet ain’t down to god or satan,it’s all human.if u want some thing to worship the earth is there ,becouse once its gone its bye bye humanity.And yes to the post above as bad as it is u are here becouse your parents bread you just like a dog or a cat ,they mated .no purpose just mated.religion is in the heart .
I prefer a definition of God as an energy that exists in all places and all times. Fortunately, science has discovered this God and has taken its picture!
http://incontinuity.wordpress.com
In reference to the people acting as if God made a universe with his hands.
How did he do it?
Yeah, he created it, in 7/6 days as we’re told.
How did he do it?
What plausible evidence have you got, against
A) The Big Bang theory
B) (macro)Evolution
C) Science in general
???
It’s nice to quote 500 verses from the Bible which tell us God made the world, but can you please explain how he made it? Did he wave a magic wand and *poof* the world pops out, universe and all, and just stuck a few fossils here and there to test us?
jesterballz,
Of course. I m sure you do also…and should know also that they are not 100% reliable and the scientific community is divided betwenn hundreds of theories. Even Einstein admits the existence of a superior power. No ” beginning” has been demonstrated yet. Somehow is the reason why Stephen Hawking has not been awarded till now with the nobel prize. Because “the Swedish Royal Academy demands that an award-winning discovery must be supported by verifiable experimental or observational evidence”.
First of all i would like to say that this is a good post and a good question if we never question our beliefs or lack of that would be just as wrong as not believing. I will say that i believe in God and Jesus Christ. I believe because of faith i have seen and expierienced too many things to say there isnt a God. The question was asked who created God. Scientifically you could never understand this but God was always there. Like i said scientifically forever is not correct because there should always be a begining and a end. As for the person who said that every body believes the bible just because it’s older and eventually we could believe harry potter is true, i think that is ridiculous. Here are some good reasons to believe the bible is based on fact.
1.Even though it is really sixty-six individual books, written on three continents, in three different languages, over a period of approximately 1500 years, by more that 40 authors (who came from many walks of life), the Bible remains one unified book from beginning to end without contradiction.
2. There are over three hundred prophecies concerning Jesus Christ in the Old Testament alone. Not only was it foretold where He would be born and what family He would come from, but also how He would die and that He would rise again on the third day. There simply is no logical way to explain the fulfilled prophecies in the Bible other than by divine origin. There is no other religious book with the extent or type of predictive prophecy that the Bible has.
3. Because the Bible details historical events its truthfulness and accuracy is subject to verification like any other historical documentation. Through both archaeological evidences and other written documents, the historical accounts of the Bible have been proven time and time again to be accurate and true. In fact all the archaeological and manuscript evidence supporting the Bible makes it the best documented book from the ancient world.
4.s mentioned earlier, God used men from many walks of life to record His Words to us. In studying the lives of these men, there is no good reason to believe that they were not honest and sincere men. Examining their lives and the fact that they were willing to die (often excruciating deaths) for what they believed in, it quickly becomes clear that these ordinary yet honest men truly believed that God had spoken to them. The men who wrote the New Testament and many hundreds of other believers (1 Corinthians 15:6) knew the truth of their message because they had seen and spent time with Jesus Christ after He had risen from the dead. The transformation of seeing the Risen Christ had a tremendous impact on these men. They went from hiding in fear, to being willing to die for the message God had revealed to them. Their lives and deaths testify to the fact that the Bible truly is God’s Word.
Another argument made in the opening article is that there cannot be a god because god allows suffering and supposedly god is good. Think about this for a second
The answer may be seen in the example of Job. Here is a devout man who meets with disaster in the loss of his flocks and herds-the source of his wealth; with terrible bereavement in the loss of all his children at one stroke; and then is stricken with a tormenting disease which separates him from men. Yet he says: “What? Shall we receive good at the hand of the Lord, and shall we not receive evil?” (Job 2:10). He recognises the important principle that he cannot claim good as a right: it is not for him to decide what God shall do.
As for those who just want to make fun of God and the bible, the scripture says “the cross is foolishness to those who are unbelievers” 1 Cor 1:18
18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are dying, but to us who are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, I will bring the discernment of the discerning to nothing.”
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the lawyer of this world? Hasn’t God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.
22 For Jews ask for signs, Greeks seek after wisdom,
23 but we preach Christ crucified; a stumbling block to Jews, and foolishness to Greeks,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For you see your calling, brothers, that not many are wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, and not many noble;
27 but God chose the foolish things of the world that he might put to shame those who are wise. God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong;
28 and God chose the lowly things of the world, and the things that are despised, and the things that are not, that he might bring to nothing the things that are
i would also add that no other religion (that i am aware of) has it’s God dying for every single human being and rising from the dead so that we might have salvation.
Now i do not claim to know everything about God or who he is, if i did God would not be God. I do not consider myself better than anybody or more holy. I have wronged myself and i have wronged others. I know that I know that God is God and I am not so i dont try to understand and explain God’s every purpose and action.
In reference to Incontinuity, that exploding argument you have on your blog/site is interesting. To say the least.
DemonUmpire, please understand this: I don’t “believe in evolution” – I accept it. Big difference. You don’t need to have faith in a scientific theory like you do a religion. In fact, you can’t compare them.
Freethought,
You deserve an award for this (if the sentence its yours) :”No one can prove there is no god, otherwise smarter people would have done it a much longer time ago”
Freethought,
Childish, I think Epicurus may disagree with you.
“No one can prove there is no god, otherwise smarter people would have done it a much longer time ago.” Again, Epicurus. Just because you don’t believe it, it doesn’t mean it is not proven.
I forgot to mention something important, these scientific facts are a prof that it is the truth. The question is will you follow the truth and be awarded by heaven or live in doubt and die in more doubt. Justice and suffering to Allah (God) is much more than just ideas they are his creations as everything else. We cannot question Allah on why he lets people suffer it’s much more complicated than that. The right thing to do is to follow his orders.
Why?
How do we know he exists?
Allah does not have to proove his existence to us, but he send us his messengers to enlighten us and guide us, the challenge is, to obey them with the miracles that they bring. One of which is the Quran. Please follow this link this is not the usual useless things people post on the web. Beleive me it might change your life.
http://english.islamway.com/bindex.php?section=all_article&topicid=47
The sooner we realise that we are ALL Agnostic, the better we will be as a race. No-one has definitive proof in either arguement and we are all ‘Without Knowledge’.
If someone claimed to believe in Odin and Thor or Ra/Anubis/Osiris in the 21st century, would you laugh at them or respect their religious freedom?
How can we be so arrogant to enforce our belief in a single deity?
The sooner we realise that we are ALL Agnostic, the better we will be as a race. No-one has definitive proof in either arguement and we are all ‘Without Knowledge’.
If someone claimed to believe in Odin and Thor or Ra/Anubis/Osiris in the 21st century, would you laugh at them or respect their religious freedom? Do timeframes, location and culture mean anything?
How can religious leaders be so arrogant that they attempt to enforce their beliefs in a single, all knowing, all powerful deity?
Prophet316, you may want to research point number 3 you made as much of the historical timeline from the exodus through to the foundation of Jerusalem has been verified as inaccurate, particularly events such as the battle of Jericho. The bible is a fantastic work, with much wisdom written into it.
An example being how certain meats needed to be “blessed” by the priests of the society. While many of the ancient people may never have known the concept of bacteria, soem of the older experienced elders in the community knew the symptoms and dangers of spoiled meat, therefore “blessed” meat had passed the ancient “meat inspectors” (priest) and was okay to eat within a certain timeframe. Incidences like this can be seen all through the old testemant.
Another poster mentioned that the bible was written because there was no need for kings etc, but let me put this to you. What sort of society would we live in today without a large portion of the population being in fear for thier mortal souls if they did anything “anti-social”(sin). Our society has reached a state of development now that allows the individual to be responsible without needing this sort of fearmongering in place to sustain order, but I think that in a time where death was more common and scientific knowledge was a lot simpler there was a need for something to unify people so they could maintain civilization.
Whether god put this in place or not is anyones guess, but overall it is hard to imagine our current civilization without a few millenia of religious reigns to maintain order while the foundations where built.
And bogdan, I believe thats my sentance, though I wouldnt be suprised if anyone else has said it as its plain as day truth.
@ All,
I love how the Theists think that saying that you can’t prove the scientific explanation of the world is enough, and then turn around and say that “you just have to believe” in their stuff.
@jesterballz,
That…. does not make sense.
tell me how the battle of jericho and other events through the exodus have been verified as inacurate
The story of the fall of Jericho is another Bible favorite that many do not choose to believe. Yet, there have been extensive excavations in this area, most notably by John Garstang (8) in the 1940’s and Kathleen Kenyon (9) in the 1950’s, that point conclusively to a massive layer of destruction around the time of 1400 BC, which was followed by an extended period during which the city was abandoned. This timeline is in direct harmony with the Bible story. Their discoveries were:
1. Jericho was strongly fortified in the late bronze period, the time of the conquest according to the biblical chronology (Joshua 2:5,7,15).
2. Jericho suffered total destruction by fire (Joshua 6:24).
3. The strong walls collapsed at the time the city was destroyed, possibly by earthquake activity. (Joshua 6:20).
4. Jericho fell at harvest time, in the spring, as indicated by the large quantities of grain stored in the city (Joshua 2:6, 3:15, 5:10)
5. The siege of Jericho was short, as the grain stored in the city was not consumed (Joshua 6:15,20).
6. Opposed to custom, the grain was not plundered, in accordance to the command given to Joshua (Joshua 6:17,18).
@Freethought,
It does. But I obviously need to be a little more clear. I can barely understand it…
It makes me sad to see so much hate, ignorance, and judgment in the world. But I see struggles in some of your lives and that you are seeking God (whether you admit it or not)for answers. This post is too long to address every issue and it probably would just add more fuel to the fire – but here is what I will say.
God loves you! He did send His Son Jesus to die for yours and my sins. If you truly believe in Him and ask for forgiveness you will be reconciled back with God. It is your choice and your free will.
All paths DO lead to God because He will be the One who judges man at the end. All paths do not lead to Heaven – some will lead to Hell. This is eternal life, one way or the other. Again, it is your choice and free will.
Are there Christian hypocrites? Absolutely! But there are also Muslim hypocrites, Jewish hypocrites, and Atheist hypocrites. No matter which “path” we take we are all human and we all sin. There is not one perfect person except God.
Do Christians struggle with Scripture? Yes, we do. And sometimes it is difficult to understand certain passages but God also does not need or have to give us all the answers. We deserve nothing, but He in His endless grace, has given us
what we need to know.
How many of you have truly read the Bible? How many of you have sat down to pray for guidance and direction? How many of you base your decisions of God off of a person or an experience?
I am sorry that some of you have seen the ugly Christians – the ones who say one thing and do another. I am sorry if you have had a bad experience in church. And I am sorry that you can’t see that there IS a God who truly loves you and wants you to be a part of His life.
Christianity, as a religion, is messy at times. But our goal should not to be looking at men and women for answers and role models. We should be looking at Jesus. I know some of you mock Him and throw stones at Him. But remember He died for you. His story has not been disproven by any scientist, atheist, or other religion. Following Jesus requires FAITH. If it were all easy then there would be no reason to follow. It is your will to choose eternal life or death. It is your decision to call upon the Lord of Lords or the prince of demons.
I will pray for all of you. For clarity and understanding. I pray that you choose life. Deuteronomy 30:11-20
revjim,
Why should I choose your God over the thousands of others? Your argument lacks reason. It is easy to say that people need faith. But you are approaching the argument from the wrong direction, like if I argued that God doesn’t exist – why do you believe in him?…
The question of the that has been put to the test for millions of years from the very first know tribes to even the egyptions to today with all we know of science and space and yet we as a species ask the same question is there a God? Well personally I dont necisarrily know myself but I do believe that there is a higher power at work. Wether you want to call it god or fate, maybe even destiny. But whatever it is I think we control it we make the decisions that have put us where we are. So yes we control are own fate wether we want to accept it or not. Its so easy to say that this person did this to you, or it was the other guy but in reallity if thought about they wouldnt have or the other guy would never exsist unless you were there on that spot or at that answered that question that was posed unless you wanted to be there, remember its your own two feet that get you where your going, with that I say adeu.
Who said God is against suffering?
I’d say it takes a pretty small mind to assume that their feeble grasp of right and wrong can be applied to something that created the laws of the universe.
You see, no matter if you are right or wrong, your very argument makes you look foolish, and very very narrow minded, unable to grasp concept and form arguments.
You are perhaps the epitomy of our race, bags of greasy leather, carrying glibbering sacks of organs.
You present a null argument therefore, and what is worse, your pathetic self triumphant declaration, or the fact that the others who will try and argue for or against you will even miss that point entirely.
Redundant.
print,
At least I have put forward an argument. Try pointing out where I went wrong rather than just insulting me.
God put us on this earth to become overcomers. Why go to school and study to try and achieve your goals if it’s as easy as handing you a degree and a job and a nice house? What’s the point in playing sports and trying to be the best when you can just be handed a trophy without having to make one single effort. You have to work at something in order to appreciate it, no?
You say, “if there is such thing as a God, why does He create pain and suffering?” “There is no God because people in developing nations are starving and suffering…”
“No proof. No evidence. Christians, as we know it, are wrong.”
Being a Christian requires you to put your full faith into His hands. It’s about believing.
God doesn’t give you anything you can’t handle.
Yesterday in church, the preacher announced that a young father, very well known in the church, was looking at his last days here on earth; cancer has taken over his body. Instead of asking, “Why God? If You love me, or if You exist, why would You do this to me?”, they are prepared for his leaving. Everyone is prepared, as sad as that dreaded day will be.
Why would you want to be filled with hate and bitterness at the loss of a loved one when you can know it was all a part of the plan? I could never imagine the pain but everything happens for a reason and you have to be prepared for it whether you believe in God or not.
Pointing the finger is a lot easier than being strong sometimes.
I think it is easier for you to just say God does not exist than put your faith into something you can’t see.
You are looking for God in all the wrong places. If you are interested in finding Him, ask somebody who knows Him.
I’m very interested in this debate…
Fuck GOD teehee he scred me over too many times.
wow someone should grow up a little bit. ^^^^^
Oh I am very bad in logic. But I would like to refute you, based on what I beleive. There is God of course. HE can be Allah, Jehovah, Abba, etc. How can you explain the existense of the universe? The complex anatomy of human? Science can not explain it all.
Hi JB!
Consider this:
Isaiah 45:6-7 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
In the absence of a higher moral authority is there such thing as “good” or “evil”? What is your definition of “good”? Is it God’s?
-j
GREAT post–it causes people to think!
I know God exists… He has really touched my heart like no other could do. I’m happy, I have freedom in my heart and that’s everything I need… You may call this crap but he does really exist. You will never be able to explain why and how and so on but you can ask him to reveal himself to you. Even if it takes time he will answer all prayers.
But what do you unbelievers think about people who get healed? how do they miraculously get healed? many times it is uncurable diseases that just… disappear! You can’t explain that unless there is a God. Doctors cannot explain, neither you can.
And what about people who experience God’s power in such a wonderful way, and people who get delivered from different addicts? For example, a man who becomes a christian but still smokes and has done that for years. But he decides to stop and burn up all cigarettes and the addiction never comes back! The addiction disappeared when he decided not to smoke anymore, he didn’t even want to smoke… People who smoke know that it’s not easy to get rid of that addiction…
And what about people whose drug-addiction just disapperas in the name of Jesus? People who never ever need drugs after one single prayer. That is supernatural.
And people who have real problems and don’t feel good at all, people who suffers from depression… they can ask Jesus to help them and at one moment it all changes… they feel happy, free and know that God has helped them.
Folks, you cannot say that God exists. Supernatural things are happening all over the world… God is still doin things.
[...] JUMP IN! [...]
I think this post has proceeded beyond the level of normal comprehension. Shadow, if you or someone else want to lay out what you said in a more concise post, I’ll be glad to address your points there.
Everyone is entitled to their beliefs as long as they do not try to enforce those beliefs on others.
ansoo,
Care to give us all a couple of examples where these miracles have happened?
People “believe” in god because it makes them feel good. It makes them feel good about themselfs.
The concept of god is an ancient and putrid fabrification, designed to keep people in check. You don’t even need to debate about these things and give your opinion. You need only ask yourself what good it does a person to believe in god.
Except fooling yourself into thinking that your a better person by believing in him. God was made up to create order. Order from chaos. You can think of it as a failsafe, wich is no longer needed. For real, most “believers” have to live by certain rules. These rules enslave the mind.
For example, the age old rule that is “no sex before marriage”. What the hell kind of stupid rule is this? I’ll tell you what kind of rule it is:
Designed to make sure a man makes a commitment to his wife to be. To take care of her. As was needed back in the day, when women didn’t work, but stayed home and took care of the kids.
Respectively, a few days ago I read that “marriage” is becoming less popular these days. Why? Because it is no longer necessary. Women can now work for a living, so men in general don’t have to take “care” of them anymore.
The entire religion believe in god mindfuck, and everything that belongs to it, is a control method. And a genius one at that. Perfect circularity. If one believes in god, something that is so unapperant, so mysterious, and almost unreal, and you are confronted by something or someone who doesn’t believe in god, it will only reinforce your believes more and more.
Because if not, then your admitting to yourself that you believed a lie. And a rediculous one to. And people don’t like to do this, it envokes shame and fear. Consequently these two components are what drives someone to believe rediculous things.
Fear and shame push you into the circle, and fear and shame make sure you stay there. Simple examples of these statements:
Heaven and hell. We don’t like hell. God doesn’t like sin. If you sin you go to hell. (this alone will make you believe in god if you’re a naive little basterd. It’s much easier to believe in something negative (hell) then something positive.)
So now you believe in god. And you cannot just stop believing in him because you’d have to face the fact that you believed such a lie. So now you’re stuck.
The basic fact that believing in god gives you certain rules to follow makes it a stupid thing to believe in. Rules enslave you. The only reason why we enforce rules is because we are not civilized enough to maintain order without them. But be have the law to enforce order, so we don’t religion.
Not to say that the law is the way to go. The basic principle of “law” is also based on lies and deceit. The same as religion. But it is a more modern one, and thus more effecient.
Let me tell you what god is. God is awareness. Awareness is everything, absolutely everything. If you are not aware of something then you might as well assume that it doesn’t exist. Now a few of you smartasses will probably come at me with, “well ahh… you know, there’s like ahh, a tree in my backyard right now, but you can’t see it, does it exist?”
Yeah real clever, I don’t know, does it? I might probably take your word for it. Why? Because I know tree’s exist. I’ve seen them myself, and because I know that a tree in a backyard is a common occurence. But god on the other hand is a different story. I’ve never seen him, and nobody else has ever see him to. Alltough some people might say they have.
Like I said, awareness. I can believe that there’s a tree in your backyard because I’m aware that they exist, and often in a backyard. You can only determine somethings existence when there are actually things that point to it’s existence. Other then people blinded by irrationel fear and shame.
Because you see, people are capable of lying. To themselves and to others at the same time. Evidence on the other hand, doesn’t lie.
Want more arguments that prove religion SUCKS. How about, I’ll kill you because my god is better and more real then yours. Oh yeah, a while ago I read that the pope said that people shouldn’t use condoms. Gues what happens in places such as africa when people stop using condoms because a “holy” man said you shouldn’t use rubbers.
The guy who started this whole shebang didn’t want to say it, but I will. The general population of believers SUCK! Most of you are arrogant, naive and cowerdly people.
It’s almost like a blob trying to engulfe all and everyhting (because is supposedly all and everything). Back in the day science and religion were maximum opposites. And now all of the sudden people realize that they can’t do anyhting without the help of science like computers and stuff, because we live in a science dominated world, and they’ll start saying, “Well I believe that god is responsible for everyhting including math and science and stuff”. Like some morron did above, and in the T.V. series of “Invasion”.
No dude, god is not responsible for all these things. Your just saying that because you know that in modern day society you need science to get by, so you just contribute science as another one of gods marvelous creations. Your nothing but a modern day religion following naivete.
A couple of hundred years ago, you would get burned at the stake for using what was understood back then as science. Why? Same thing all over, FEAR.
NOW STOP BEING SUCH A DUFFUS AND TRY REASON AND FACING YOU FEAR FOR ONCE.
To add to my previous comment… the point at which you can tell that a discussion has devolved is when the number of ad hominems ratchet up.
DC
You are 100% right.
Religion = Control of the masses
The heart of this issue is belief. That’s what it all stems down to. The only person that believes that what you are saying is proof: you. You can prove anything that has no concrete facts, using words. And no facts are concrete. Can you prove without a shadow of a doubt that the sun casts light? To me, yes. Can you prove this to a blind man?
Everyone here can prove that their own belief is flawed. We chose instead to point out each other’s holes to prove that we are right. See the movie “Thank you for Smoking”, and you’ll see that to win a debate you don’t have to prove that you are right, only that the opposition is wrong.
Now, don’t get me wrong, just like my namesake, I believe that Jehovah is God. What I believe is based upon my interpretation of the Bible. The biggest problem with (stupid) Christians today is they blur the line between religion and opinion.
Examples:
“Stem cell research is playing god.” How? Scientists are not God, nor are they attempting to be God with this research. I think people playing god is just one more way God made us in his image.
“Homosexuals shouldn’t be allowed to marry.” It’s true, homosexual acts are frowned upon in the bible. So is eating bacon. Having a rash gets solitary confinement for 7 days. It’s all in the book of Leviticus (In the Old Testament of the Bible). However, we live under the laws of the New Testament, not the Old. And that’s beside the point. I still think homosexuality is despicable. But I have love and respect of everyone. Jesus loved and kept company with thieves and tax collectors, why shouldn’t I?
Sorry to go off topic, but stupid people who claim to have the same beliefs as me piss me off. But that’s okay, because you don’t have the same beliefs as me.
I believe that we are all just computer code in one wicked Real Time Strategy game. Hear me out now, ‘cause Jehovah’s on the mouse. This game has great graphics and AI; It’s just too bad his mom said it’s time for dinner and he’s been AFK since 6:30 p.m.
P.S. Just because I call God “Jehovah” doesn’t mean I’m a fucking Jehovah’s Witness. That’s his name, look it up.
Heheh, I found that it is very hard to argue with god-lovers that god does not exists, it is like you argue with someone that they are not exists. Believe me, the church used its power to suppress who doubt god existing, then things change, the only power they have left is using fairy tales story about god that they “DREAM OF”, heard someone “DREAM OF”, … and they have 2000 years to refine it
. It also applied to all religious. One day, I asked a missionary, after he tried to annoy me about god, that without god, I still alive, without air, I would die, so which one is better? He also said that he dreamed about god all the time, i said i dreamed about money all the time, but like your god never come to you, so the money. I just hope one day god really come to him 
. I swear at god and budda all the times, my wife said i should not otherwise i will be punished, i said if I am punished, then god is not good then, then i dont have to follow the bad guy 
. One day I wish i could thank god for putting meal on the table without me have to work so hard to get it. Well, some said god give you health so you can work to get meal, I bet that those old bags god lover really wish for health and youth so they can have more sex but god would not care.
So, who/what is GOD? Base on my observation from different religious
GOD = HOPE/BELIEVE
That was the initial idea of GOD when human was in a very hardship time. GOD is created by imagination of human and heaven is the place where human goal of living and working. But then a group of people turning GOD and religious in to a money making machine, so they can build big/large buildings and live in it, so they dont have to work, and they always thanks god putting the meals on their table and they ask us to do the same???
Why dont someone ask them to live in starving africa countries, ask them to grow they own food like people overthere do, ask them to drink poluted water, … see how long before they stop thank god for the meals. Nowaday, GOD is a fashion of the rich people, no more, no less.
My wife aunt used to talk about Budda like a parrot. One day, I told her that there is no such thing. She immediately asked me to be quiet if I am not believing and it is insulting. I told her that I do believe, and I believe myself my true god, and there is no other GOD exists, and talking about other GOD to me is insulting me, and then she stopped talking about her god since then.
That’s right my friends, you are your true god, you are the one who should thank YOU to put meal on your table. and stop talking about other people GOD if he/she/it ever exists. Who cares about other people god as long as they don’t insult you with their god.
However, I would believe that those god lovers would never stop insulting us our True Gods.
I am surprised that someone could use this kind of logic to try to disprove the existence of God. This arguement doesn’t even make me consider that He may not exist. Suffering is something that we have brought upon ourselves as a result of sin. Sin is the opposition to God and his word. If every one were in line with the word of God and doing His will then we would be taking care of everyone. There would be no starvation, no theft, no murder, no coveting, no blasphemy, no lies etc. If God was not apposed to suffering then he would not have provided a way by which we could be saved and left us to eternal suffering that we truely deserve. I also think that if someone is going to be s cynic then they should do what that word truely means. Study all sides of the arguement because the Bible clearly shows the errors of the original arguement. I also feel sorry for anyone who rejects Jesus as Savior for they haven’t begun to understand suffering.
well, i’d say you’ve just had a bad run-in with Christians, Jews or Muslims. You’ve probably only run into the shallow, self-proclaimating bastards that only call themselves “spiritual”. i asure there is a God and by no means is He “all good”, if He were “all good” that in tern would mean that He has very little influence on the world, meaning that the Devil, (a much lesser being) would in fact have more influence than the being that created it. the God of the old testiment is the same God of today, far more complex than any person could understand.
“God didn’t create man, man created god” – Cowboy Bebop
Positive thinking brings positive results. Those who think positive (there IS a god and he WILL heal) will overcome sickness quicker.
God created man in his image? What if god was a monkey or bacteria?
This is somewhat pro-god, but I’d also like to point out that we get our values from loss/suffering, which would explain why [your] god allows it.
-M
This is really fun shout
. The unbelievers are putting all their angry here as the believers have been insulting unbelievers with their believe without caring for the fact that the unbelievers also believe that the unbelieved thing cannot be believed 
GOD is a product and bible is a marketing tool
. The unbelievers just shout what they think while the believers shout what other believers told them which go back few thousands years of marketing study 
unfortunately for those unbelievers that they have neither product nor marketing tool
Your comparisons are like comparing the fact that Apples grow on trees. Anything that grows on a tree is an apple. Oranges are apples. God is a good and JUST God. If you had a child who hit you in the back of the head for no particular reason, would you just forgive your child and let him go on his merry way? No you’d punish your child, send him to his room or spank him etc. Man is like that child who disobeys. Just as children need discipline so do we as God’s creation. God is infinite, we are finite. There is no way our minds can fully understand God. I can devote my entire life to searching for God’s truths and trying to understand Him but in the end it would be like a drop in a bucket of water, there is too much to God. And boiling it down to 10 points shows that you don’t know nearly anything about Him.
point 9. there was no suffering until Eve sinned and ate the forbidden fruit, and Adam sinned when he ate of the fruit too. Since then mankind has had to be punished for Sin. thus suffering exists. God dislikes the suffering but it is necessary. ask any GOOD parent. they discipline their child, when their child cries they dislike it but if they stopped punishment their child would not learn.
jesterballz,
I know lots of examples of people who have been set free and healed.
I know people who have been delivered from drug-addictions and cigarettes, and I know people who have been healed, many actually. It’s no bullshit, it’s real life… It’s just that people pretend to think “oh, they must be kidding” or ” they’re lying”… etc… but they are just telling the truth.
I’ve seen God as I was close to entering death-a message-church is not of God…religion is not of God! God is more than any connection to church or religion…those people have no idea,they just think they do.
Fallacious Bob (Not to be confused with Fellatious Bob) – Thanks. I am still cooking up part two. It is a challenge trying to squeeze my gooey thoughts into delicious icing words.
http://incontinuity.wordpress.com
To the Non-Believers who want to convince the Believers:
I can’t help but put you in the same category as traditional medical scientists: they always want to “prove” that some bogus treatment like homeopathy, crystals, hypnosis and such do not work.
So they create a scientifically valid study, and demonstrate that the treatments don’t work any better than a palecbo. They conclude that the treatment is bogus, and should be banned!
I think that is so short sighted.
After all, the placebo effect is a very real, measurable treatment. The success rate is only 20%? 30%? So what! It works for some people.
If there is a superior alternative, great, go with that. But if there isn’t, and the placebo works sometimes, then use it!
Likewise with God and religion. Catholicism works for some people. Whether it is true or false has nothing to do with it. It works! It gives them meaning, purpose, structure and satisfaction in their lives. True or False, Right or Wrong, they got nuthin to do with it.
The problem is that our science based culture says that if it isn’t scientific, then it is bad. But that just isn’t so. In fact, there is real scientific evidence that there is an energy that is omnipresent in space and time. We even measure it throughout the universe. Is it God? That is up to you to decide.
Yours In Continuity,
Allen
http://incontinuity.wordpress.com
Hahaha, God is simply the most evil bastard ever! How can he ever be real and be “all good” if he kills everoyne single person except one family with a fuck off huge flood! All he does is kill people in the Old Testament so how on Earth an he ge good?
The Bible simply put is:
Old Testament = God being one mean mother fucker!
New Testament = Jesus trying to make up for his Dad being such a bastard!
[...] This morning, I read this guy’s oversimplified discussion of god. [...]
for JUNAMAN
1. i actually meant that me being a muslim its obvious for me…but for you:
the existence of the universe is precident itself, it is enough proof that something , anything, exists that created this. everything existed has been created from something rright??? e.g. lightbulb. nothing just blandly pops up outta nowhere haha right??? so where did all this come from?? someone created it. and do you even know why the whole apple and snake thing was set up?? to test adam and eve. and they failed. if there was nothing there to possibly lead us astray form the true path, then wouldnt people like you not exist??? wouldnt everything be didly perfect???? in my opinion, you are the snake, and i am adam ( a little proud it may be). if i fall for you, ill be punished just like they were. this whole world is a test to challenge our faith and decide if we are worthy. without things to lead us astray it wouldnt be a test would it???
2. if we didnt have free will, then it wouldnt be much of a test would it (assuming there is a god , point 1.) btw, christians are wrong. christ was a human and nothing more. he was a prophet, but not a god.
4. yes they dont mind as long as its for their religion. much worse than this happened to us when islam came into being., and we bore through it. we weerent whiny pusses and didnt blame god for ‘bingin harm to us’. we blamed the people for being blind.
sex is fobidden in islam, not sex but too much sex with too many people, you know?? why? because its harmful. islam clearyl says dont have sex, too much you know?? and their method of sex is wrong…even and ignorant idiot like you cant argue with not using a condom??? there are also proper ways to do things. and the ways those people do it is improper. (dont argue witht at, you’ll look stupid. i mean soooo many relief programs have been set up to teach them the right way)
there is no free will in that. islam is a very flexible religion. thiese kinds of situations have been clearly explained. the child wont be punioshe d at all. he wont go through any judgement. consider him lucky, unlike you.
and ending it, yes i still have complete faith, as i said before, you are the snakle, and i am adam.
btw how old are you???
I’d like to point out that “God” is essentially just one being, regardless of your beliefs. You can approach “him” from any perspective i.e. judaism, christianity, islam, agnosticism, etc, yet it will still be the one god. The case of “your god” and “my god” is ridiculous, especially when involved in discourse between Abrahamic religions.
Kindergarteners in Good Ol’ US of Freedom™ have sex education. Hahahahahaha.
Perhaps
God needs us
as much as we
need God
Oh, and I love your “so what is christianity all about” picture. It shows you have absolutely no bias about Christianity.
Way to write an unbiased blog.
ansoo,
Still waiting on those examples…
Fallacious Bob,
Thank you. That is a side joke. And I never said I didn’t have a bias. Though I probably do. But I prefer to call it a focus. Considering most of the developed world are Christians (please let that be true – im not going to look it up), and I think a lot of my audience are christian, my country is mostly christian (try to guess it)and blablabla.
I’m completely opposed to the Christian bible because of all the trouble it’s caused me AND the hypocrisy inherent within it: there is NO WAY an ‘all-good’ super-being would create suffering if he just left the bad things out: it saves EVERYONE at noone’s expense. There isn’t a reason to test your subjects if you don’t have to to keep their loyalty. And, to be frank, I’m not going to believe in a being that toys with me.
leaving aside the definition and capabilities of God, here’s one that questions his decision making powers..
the western religions(though they all originated in the middle east!) say that god created the wonderful world and everything in it, so that he could create man/subsequently a woman (said to be in his image). what was His objective? – He wanted to know how grateful his creation(read humans) would be to Him.
my question:
Wouldn’t he have known, despite the fact that He gave these humans a free will, that there would be at best, just a handful in ever generation tha prospered in the world He created?
what was the point in wasting all that energy and time??
Nelson,
I can’t help thinking it’s like a game of the Sims. You just can’t resist screwing with them, can you?
Well, it is quite simple. God created man and woman and let them live their lives in a place where no pain or hate existed. He told them that they were able to do whatever they liked, except from eating an apple from the tree of Wisdom. This is probably symbolic and it does not mean that there is actually a tree of Wisdom. The woman and the man ate an apple from the tree of Wisdom and they did not accept their fault, they tried to hide it from God, and that is the reason why God decided to send them away from what people call Heaven (another symbol, probably meaning a situation of complete absence of pain and misery). Eva (the woman) suffered to bring life to earth ever since and Adam (the man) had to perform exausting jobs so to be able to feed his family. Some years later Cain killed Avel, who was his brother, and when God asked him where he was, he tried to hide his sin. So you can imagine that the world then was somehow the same shit it is today. Then, God decided to flood the whole earth but Noe and his family (and one piece for each animal specie). I must remind you that many of these may be symbolic. The same God who decided to kill all the people who had sinned and turned earth into a disgusting planet of raping, killing, and stealing is the same God that is testing everyone in our life. Job was a man whose family was killed, his money were lost completely and after that he got sick for a long time. All the time he was saying:The God is the one who gave me everything and the God is the one who will take everything from me now or later. This is a little bit crazy but after that he was treated by that disease and made family and money all over.
Let’s try to see why God is letting those kids die from lack of food. Because things are this way. But let me set you something clear: If you were such a kid you would be suffering from the actions of others, and that is why you would return back to heaven easily, whereas you would not be able to do so that easily if you owned some factories, lived ’sucking’ other peoples’ money without helping the others at all. It is not fair been a handicapped person, I know, but you will be rewarded after your death if so. I mean that a very rich person who helped only one other and a poor child from africa who died because he did not have any food will not be judged the same. It is obvious that the poor child will go to Heaven more easily. Anyway, what would be the meaning of life if God served all our wishes and we had no pain, no fear, no stress, no diseases, only happiness? That exactly is what we call Heaven. Do we all deserve it? How does God know if we do? He tries to test us. Yes, He will test your faith, by diseases, failures and after your death He will judge you.
Guys, you definitely need God.
I am amazed reading comments that belittle God, comments coming from ruined people, people that have nothing to live for, people that are too scared to face their own dirt, people that are afraid to stand before the absolute standard of holiness… I know it’s easier to bury your head in the sand and claim that there’s no danger, instead of keeping your head high, respect yourself and deal with the peril. I know it’s uncomfortable to be told that you live an aimless life, i know it’s not pretty to be told that you might be wrong in your assumptions.
For a moment I hoped that in a post-post-modernist age you guys have realized that science cannot prove anything, unfortunately. If someone in a sane mind can ever think that one can prove God scientifically, measure Him, quantify Him, then that someone needs to check himself. But I guess my hopes were useless, because some people are still stuck in old thinking patterns that have been refuted a long time ago.
You know, just because you have never found God does not give you the authority to claim that there is no God. It’s childish to come with an argument like this: “I have not met John, so John doesn’t exist”, because this is all the initial argument of this thread comes down to. I honestly do not expect anyone to support the existence of God without knowing Him first. And trying to prove or disprove Him my logical means is futile as well. But those who met God, know that He is. I challenge you to stop talking about something without knowing that yourself, especially if that something is God. Show a little dignity and self-respect.
And now it is time for some proof. Hold on a couple of minutes. I will give you some signs that show God probably exists. Do not expect a clear way that proves the existance of God. If anyone really proves He exists there will be no free will and the whole world will act like crazy, as he will be afraid of God and will not be able to see his real face.
Dear Alex,
Those kids are dying because of heartless idealogical people.
Such as you, for instance.
You killed starving children.
You.
Yes, you.
Hey, let’s see this proof. I want to see it. Bring it the [insert expletive here] on.
puccini,
Double standard… You say that science is useless because it can’t be proven. But then you say to believe in God, but that can’t be proven either. And again. “God exists because we need him to” – bad argument.
@jesterballz
wrong, my dear. I thought that you were smart enough to know by know that faith cannot be proven scientifically. I cannot prove you in a scientific manner that God exists, simply because God cannot be reduced to our measurements, but I do believe in Him because I have met Him. You may not be able to explain rationally some things that you face, but you feel their effects nonetheless. Does that sound familiar to you?
I have never said/written that “God exists because we need Him to”… I don’t believe that argument either.
Have you read the Da Vinci Code? Well, I have. Well, to understand the following passage you should know who the templars were. So, I will tell you. I have read several history books and I have a come to a result.
The Knights Templar trace their origin back to shortly after the First Crusade. In 1119, a French nobleman from the Champagne region, Hughes de Payens approached King Baldwin II, king of Jerusalem, and asked his persmission to create a force of knights/monks with a holy mission. To protect the ones that would like to go to Jerusalem to pray from the port that was some kilometres away. He agreed and gave him the place he selected to set his ‘headquarters’. Then, the first templar collected 8 people. They were the first 9 templar knights. For a mysterious reason they did not help anyone for 9 years. They started some campaigns and donations after those 9 years and, their power started to raise really quick after their meeting with Pope In 1139, even more power was conferred upon the Order by Pope Innocent II. It stated that the Knights Templar could pass freely through any border, owed no taxes, and were subject to no one’s authority except that of the Pope. It was a remarkable confirmation of power. This means that they could give loans to people and deposit their money for a while, and keep earn money from this (this was illegal for all that ages). [[continued]]
In 1128 though, they started to become very well-known in Europe. They went on a fundraising campaign, asking for donations of money, land, or noble-born sons to join the Order, with the implication that donations would help both to defend Jerusalem, and to ensure the charitable giver of a place in Heaven. Their efforts were helped by leading churchman Bernard of Clairvaux (later Sainted), a nephew of one of the original nine, who became the Order’s powerful patron. Bernard wrote a multi-page letter entitled “In Praise of the New Knighthood”, championing:
De Payens and Bernard participated in the 1128 Council of Troyes, where the Order was officially recognized and confirmed, and the donations came pouring in. For example, in the 1130s, The King of Aragón, in Spain, left large tracts of land to the order upon his death. These generous donations became a common practice for new members. Since the order was first and foremost a monastic organization, new members were expected to donate land, horses and any other items of material wealth, including labor from serfs, as part of their vow of poverty.
, which may have been brought about by the Order’s patron, Bernard of Clairvaux, who had helped bring Pope Innocent to power.
Personally I Think (and this is just my personal opinion) that religion is all about the money. take the catholic church for instance, the richest Institution on the planet, not only do they require your Faith but also your money every week in the form of a “Collection Plate”. “God Created Man in his own image” thats so funny, if that were true wouldnt we all be neanderthal’s? Life Is to short to spend it “praying or whailing” at a statue or wall
Ok, right out of the box, your theory falls on it’s face. G-d created evil (Isaiah 45:7). This is one of the major flaws in Christian thinking, but hey, you warp the Torah to make up some false man-god, this is what happens.
As for free will, it is actually the purpose behind G-d’s creation of evil. Without a meaningful choice, free will cannot exist. So if only evil people suffered, noone would be evil, so it isn’t really a choice. Therefore, G-d can still be all good, but create evil. The above verse stresses to ‘choose the good’.
Suffering does not disprove free will. Every choice a person makes has consequences, and the more powerful the person, the greater the consequences. Those consequences effect other people, sometimes negatively, sometimes positively.
G-d’s knowledge of everything does not disprove free will. G-d is not restricted to time, as we are. It doesn’t flow for Him. It’s difficult to conceptualize, but there it is. The fact that he is aware of what choices we’re going to make doesn’t change the fact that WE made them. It’s more like He remembers the choices we are going to make.
@Sceptic
My dear, don’t shoot the painter just because he’s got a painting all wrong… I understand your frustration, and I respect you courage to voice it. But you know, just because someone doesn’t know how to cook beef does not make beef evil.
[last rows entered by mistake]
Anyway, the point is that some told they found some proof under the temple for something really serious that could destroy the Church. So they threatened the Pope and had their power mainly from that. Dan Brown says that in The Da Vinci Code that there were proof that Jesus was married to Mary, and that they had kids. Another book says that Jesus Christ was just a philosopher like Socrates and not the Son of God and that the Templars found his own note that prove that. No one can be sure for what the Templars said to the Pope, but we can be sure for some things:
-The Pope (head of Catholoc Church) was 99.9% blackmailed by the Templars.
-The Head of the Orthodox Church was not blackmailed then, and not after (after 1307) when the Pope decided to kill them (with the French King). If the proof was any of those one mentioned, the knights could blackmail the Orthodox Head Priest and go to Constantinople to save theirselves and maybe fight the ones that hunt them. If the proof was one of those one mentioned and both Pope and the Orthodox Head Priest refused to help them, they would give the proof to the world so they could easily escape.
-Remember when the Templars were first joined? 1119 AFTER CATHOLIC CHURCH WAS DIVIDED FROM THE ORTHODOX. (1054)
@ Alex
Just a short point… Do not forget that Dan Brown’s book is but fiction, as he said it himself…
Find the way out yourselves.
God sent his son once and told:he who believes in me may follow me.
If you do not believe in Him then just don’t.
But try to find out how the Holy Light is lighting up every year at Easter. I will help you out. By Itself. The Isralin Army once checked the priest that went to the room that the light is received and found no matches, lighters, rocks or anything similar on him. He only had a candle. Then, he came out holding the candle which had fire. The Holy Light.
hey god works in mysterious ways man.
we r just humans ,we ‘re not meant to know everything. besides how wil anyone know the value of ‘good’ there is no ‘evil’ or ‘bad’ things out there.Im not a pious saint o anythin, all im sayin is dat there is no way this huge universe can be created without a supreme power.
Yes, that is what I am saying. What Dan Brown wrote in his book was just a possibility. And finally I proved that since the Templars blackmailed the Pope (which is 99.9% sure) they used something that proved that The Catholic Church is not real.
@Alex
Dan Brown’s book was JUST fiction. It was merely a written declaration of the Gnostic rhetoric. Maybe you proved that the Templars had nothing real in their hands, but that still doesn’t prove God.
Of course it does not prove God exists. If I could do that would you believe? Probably yes. That is what every one would. But that is what God does not want. And as for Dan Brown, his books is fiction of course, but the templars rose in a very small time after 9 years they were digging under the first temple of the Solomon, and history teachers DO believe that the Pope was blackmailed somehow. I just tell that the Orthodox Church was not. Ah yes, also the templars appeared 70 years after the Catholics were divided by the Orthodox because they suddenly remembered after 1000 years that they believe in God in a different way.
Also, the Pope would not let 9 people blackmail him… He would hunt them the very next moment
yet, the Templars’ story may be fascinating, but is still irrelevant in our topic
[...] One has to wonder if this guy has ever read C. S. Lewis’s The Problem of Pain. [...]
Of course. Only that it shows us that the best effort of many people to prove that what I believe is wrong fails.
Then just leave Da Vinci Code my friend. Search anout the Holy Light. (the one for the Orthodox Easter)
Wow… This still going?
Had to step out to work earlier, so I’ve just been catching up.
Had a thought today (yay!… first one for a while)
If Christians are so concerned that Christ will return (sometime around now, I believe), why is it that anyone who actually claims to be the Second Coming is either Locked-up, or ostrascised (sp?) completely?
Over here in England, there was a very famous case of one of our TV personalities claiming he was the Son of God (David Ike)… He was kicked out of his job, became a paranoid conspiracy-theorist, and was hardly ever heard of again.
His point at the time was, “Well, what would you expect the son of God to say…..?
I AM the son of God!”
Funny how no Christian demomination has accepted anyone claiming to be Christ, yet….
Almost as if they’re happy with the status quo, perhaps…..?
@dudius
have you ever read the signs of the Second Coming of Christ? I doubt that David Ike, or whoever else claimed to be Christ, fit in that description…
@Alex
My dear, you are too stuck up on irrelevant things… Show God in and through your life, it is the most powerful proof.
1-3: Let’s assume those for the moment
4. All good beings are opposed to suffering
This is where I disagree.
All good beings are opposed to NEEDLESS suffering. I’m a parent – as such I have to make decisions on a daily basis. Some of those decisions ARE to be “over-protective” (so my 4-year-old doesn’t walk to school or her own.) Others, however, have to strike a balance between what will teach her and what will keep her safe for the moment, but naive.
For example, we might let her carry on pulling at a table-cloth knowing that a plastic plate of cool food is going to fall on her head… because in doing so she will learn not to pull tablecloths. (And in so doing, avoid a theoretical future incident involving sharp knives, glasses and plates with boiling sauces on them, which would cause a lot MORE suffering.)
You and I, as adults, can understand the logical train there.
You and I, as adults, might well disagree on whether I, as a parent, have taken the right decision.
As a child, however, it can be upsetting to learn that your parent COULD have stopped the plastic plates falling on you, but chose not to.
5. All good beings who are able stop suffering will do so immediately
Well, good beings might stop NEEDLESS suffering.
6. God is opposed to suffering (from 3 and 4)
Yup
7. God can stop suffering completely and immediately (from 2)
Yes, but at a cost.
The cost in this case is the root of the problem
If we assume that in the God / Human relationship, then we are the equal of God, then we have tremendous problem. We would all take the view that God has made the wrong decision. (And, therefore, if part of our definition of God is that God can’t make the wrong decision, then this is prime facie evidence that God therefore doesn’t exist.)
If, however, we assume that in the God / Human relationship, then we are the child and that God is the adult, then we still have a problem.
Yes, we can rail against God for, as we see it, making the wrong decision, but we can’t expect to understand the full story – we don’t KNOW what the bigger problem from which God is saving us might be.
Please note that NOTHING I have said above PROVES the existence of God.
However, it does, hopefully, show that the argument above cannot, in itself, DISPROVE the existence of God.
right on, my man! Thanks!
See this is whats wrong with our society everybody just talks about things that in the end really don’t matter, right and wrong are just words people and the only word that I need is “Imagine” (JL).
@Just stop
“Imagine” what?
Let’s try this from a different line.
First, everything that had a beginning had a cause. The universe had a beginning; therefore the universe had a Cause (i.e. God). The first premise is self-evident, since to admit otherwise would amount to the ridiculous claim that nothing produces something. Even the skeptic David Hume confessed, “I never asserted so absurd a proposition as that anything might arise without cause” (LETTERS OF DAVID HUME, 1:187).
The second premise can be defended both philosophically and scientifically. Philosophically, I can make the argument that an infinite number of moments cannot be transversed. If there were an infinite number of moments before today, then today would never have come, since and infinite number of moments cannot be transversed. But today has come; hence, there were only a finite number of moments before today (i.e., a beginning of time). And everything wit ha beginning had a Beginner. Therefore, the temporal world has a Beginner (Cause).
The scientific evidence for the world having a beginning comes from the Big Bang view of the creation of the universe. There are several converging lines of evidence that the space-time universe had a beginning.
First, the universe is running out of usable energy (Second Law of Thermodynamics), and what is running down cannot be eternal. An entity cannot run out of an infinite amount of energy. Second, the universe is said to be expanding. Thus, when the “motion picture” of the universe is put into reverse, logically and mathematically it reaches a point where it is nothing (i.e., no space, no time and no matter). So the universe literally came into being out of nothing. But NOTHING CANNOT PRODUCE SOMETHING.
Third, the radiation echo given off by the universe, discovered by Arno Allan Penzias and Robert Woodrow Wilson, has the identical wavelength of that which would be given off by a gigantic explosion. Fourth, the large mass of energy resulting from such an explosion and predicted by Big Bang proponents was actually discovered by the Hubble Space Telescope in 1992. Fifth, Einstein’s own theory of general relativity demanded a beginning of time, a view he resisted for years and even defended by introducing a fudge factor into his argument, which he was later embarrassed (see Heeren and Smoot, SMG, p. 109).
The cumulative philosophical and scientific evidence for an origin of the physical universe provides a strong reason to conclude that there must have been a non-physical originating Cause of the physical universe. Agnostic astronomer Robert Jastrow admits that this is a THEISTIC conclusion (“SCBTF” in CT, 17). After reviewing the evidence that the cosmos had a beginning the British physicist Edmund Whittaker concurred, “It is simpler to postulate creation ex nihilo – divine will constituting nature from nothingness.”
I will say that I understand where many of you come from. I was into many different religions before I found Christ. I was lost and had the same feelings, arguments, and uncertainities. But I can say that nothing has changed my life more than living for Jesus. What does that mean to you? Absolutely nothing. But I would like to ask ALL of you this.
How about searching for the answers by reading the Bible and discussing it in a civilized manner? Maybe we could all learn from each other and look at things together and explore what it truly means to be a follower of Christ and the Christian faith. Maybe we could have conversation (without the judgment and cursing) and peacefully make our determination from there. How about that?
RevJim
I’m a Christian, and I have a few things to point out. Yes God did create sin or evil whichever you wanna call it. Since God is all knowing he knew the out come of his plan therefore since he wanted free will for everyone, so we aren’t walking about like a bunch of zombies he had to create evil. Think of it this way do you brain wash your own children or let them make mistakes sometimes so they can learn? Second of all is religion is made up then who started it, why did they start it(for control?), and who’s still gaining from it? First off if you believe the Jewish religion to be the first religion then Adam must of started it? But why? He didn’t need to gain anything both him and eve walked and talked with God so they knew he was real and there kids would have believed in God since there parent knew God personally.
Ok that’s my response.
Sigh. Your all very bright people. And very stupid. The fact is, we are all just going to end up as dirt. And if your lucky, that dirt will nurture a flower.
@ Hutch
Very good, but that is barely the first step… Yes, there is something, someone that is before our beginning. But there is another question that some of the posters asked: “Why the Judeo-Christian God?” Obviously these posters are either struggling with their faith or simply running from it.
As an addendum to my comment above, I would note that premises seven through ten of the above post fail. This objection basically states that if God were all-powerful (omnipotent) and all loving (omnibenevolent), there would not be any evil. But there IS evil; consequently, if god is omnipotent then he cannot be omnibenevolent.
The above conclusion does not follow, though, because it wrongly assumes that since evil is NOT YET defeated it NEVER WILL be defeated. To affirm that evil never will be defeated assumes omniscience, which only God has. Indeed, since orthodox Christianity believes that the Bible is God’s Word, we have the basis for asserting that evil will one day be vanquished (See Revelation, chapters 20-22). Therefore, since God is both omniscient and omnipotnent, we know that evil will be defeated someday, namely, when by God by His predetermined foreknowledge has decided that it will be defeated.
To state that, “All good beings who are able stop suffering will do so immediately,” fail to recognize the Biblical claim that God uses evil as a method whereby He exercises His divine justice.
markharrison,
Which part of thousands of children dying in Africa each day not needless?
“We do not understand God’s plan”. (not a quote)
Well there is no wonder…
@ Soil
Our bodies might be basically a bag of chemicals mixed together in a wondrous way, but we have something more than just that. We still possess the self-awareness that the Creator instilled in us along with the longing for eternity. If that’s all you can see when you look in the mirror, you must lead a really depressing life… Dear Soil, you need Jesus…
HAHA the cristian religion is stupid, why do you think jesus is god? lmao.
Hebrews 3:4
Ecclesiastes 12:12-13.
It’s simple people. If you want to know how to fix a car, read the manual. If you want to know about God, read the manual of life.
John 17:3
and Shane you may claim to follow Christ but if you knew your Bible you would know that with evil things God cannot be tried. James 1:13
And Jester. what you said about the Big Bang thoery proving creation raised my eyebrows, I live in Australia and I’ve had a sleep woken up and you’re still at it so good for you, I’m not here to argue with you but it’s illogical to use a THEORY to prove a point. You might as well say, “well there’s a theory that the earth is being held up by a giant turtle.”
Shane,
Noone believes that Judaism was the first religion, or that “Adam” started it. That is crazy talk.
@ jesterballz
My dear, do not be such a hypocrite as to pretend that you care about any of the thousands of children dying in Africa every day. Do not even dare use them to support your point. They die because you waste your life, and because all the waste in your life.
As for God’s plan, you must have the mind of God to understand it, and that is the very thing that Jesus is willing to give us. Open your dusty Bible (if you have one) and read chapter 2 from 1 Corinthians. Maybe that will give you some idea about what you are trying to talk about.
the ster,
And exactly which part of the “manual of life” isn’t a theory? Or is that all proven fact?
puccini,
Me? Have a Bible? Do you have Darwin’s theory of natural selection sitting on your shelf? Stop talking to me as if I am some poor lost soul. I have never been a Christian and I never will be. (Unless Jesus shows his face to me, then I might make a bit of a backflip. But I think that is less likely than… well a lot of things).
Do you not understand that telling me to read the bible is stupid? Do I tell you to go and read some Atheist propaganda to convince you? No. I present logical arguments that approach you from you side.
It’s an historical book. People have tried for 100’s of years to make the Bible appear false/wrong but they simply have NEVER suceeded. I wrote earlier that you need to look into Bible prohecy, this will never be covered in these discussions but it you were to REALLY look into the Bible you would see that man isn’t capable of being the inspriration (in total) for the Bible.
The reason why I say in total is because Solomon said “all this I have seen and everything is vanity and a striving after the wind.” That’s HIS obs. but in Isaiah, Daniel and other books you read of things that take place 100’s of years later as stated it would.
Hope that helps
the ster,
Me presenting the Big Bang theory was merely to present an alternative to the God theory that some people on this thread think is the only possible to solution to man’s existence.
the ster,
You could say that the Bible says that Jesus had two heads, and I could not prove you wrong. The Bible is not evidence if I don’t believe it. Please give me these examples or link to them etc.
I’ve not had the opportunity to read all 166 comments so far, but suffice it to say that you’ve certainly hit upon a popular topic that’s difficult to be neutral on. You raise some very good questions, ones with which people have struggled throughout the centuries and will continue to struggle with in the future.
It’s no coincidence that the scripture writers and theologians refer to God as Holy Mystery. The fact of the matter is we just don’t have the language or even the ability to comprehend all the things of God. In fact, even our definitions and ideas about God are ultimately flawed and limited because we are human. The best we can do is live into the mystery … I guess that’s what faith is all about.
@ jesterballz
I grew up in a communist country, my dear, and I am more than familiar with the atheist propaganda because it has ruined the lives of too many around me, I have seen and lived its practical consequences, and believe me, the greatest atheists in my country used to read the Bible, so that they might know what they were up against. Maybe you should do the same before doing any more bashing of Christianity.
nuns2day,
OK, there is no evidence that there is an evil pancake monster, therefore I will believe there is one. That is about as far as your argument reaches an atheist.
puccini,
Maybe I should. Maybe I shouldn’t. I never condoned atheist propaganda. On the contrary, I am against it. But just to clarify, do you consider teaching evolution as fact atheist propaganda?
First off, i will appologize, im coming into this thread with 175 comments already posted, i cant quite read them all before i leave for work. I just wish to add one point, that hopefully hasn’t been said.
I base this from the Christian perspective. You asked why children should be born into suffering? If i remember this correctly from my religion class in high school, the answer is that we carry the sins of our ancestors. (until they are forgiven ofcourse) The example of this would be of adam and eve. They sinned by eating from the tree that god had forbid them to eat from, and he exiled them from the garden of eden. Hence we too are exiled, thats why were not there anymore.
Hope this has helped somehow.
@ jesterballz
Thank you! In the same way, there is no evidence that God does not exist, only people foolish enough to claim it. After all, accepting it is a matter of faith. You accept it, it can change your life. You don’t… and live with the consequences. If there were “proofs”, i wouldn’t need faith, right?
@ jesterballz
in my country i studied ONLY atheist propaganda, which relied heavily on the theory if evolution, because it was the thing that allowed them to eliminate even the concept of something beyond what we can see with our eyes, test in our labs and record in our petty books. And, to correct you, evolution is not a fact, but a theory. Just a point of view, or a model that you can accept and build your worldview around it or not.
JB one thing that makes me cringe is when people say they do not believe in the Bible it exist’s ok! Cars exist. What I feel most people are saying, ‘I do not believe that this ancient book has relevence in my life today.’
I can accept that because that’s YOUR opinion. What I am saying is that if you were to STUDY I mean HUMBLY read it, things would be clearer to you.
A student approached Bruce Lee and said ‘I want to be just like you.’ Bruce said, “it’s impossible for you.” Bruce then went and got a glass of coke and a glass of water he the poured the water into the glass of coke while at the same time explaining “you are the coke, I am the water. Unless you empty all your thoughts and really take everything in that I say, you will never be like me.”
Today, or tonight where ever you are you will NEVER accept what I would say to you about prophecy because I believe that in this discussion you have presented yourself as a glass of coke, and that’s up to you. But you could never learn Judo with a Karate mentality could you?
Puccini,
So we reach the stalemate.
I say, there is no evidence to prove either way, I will not randomly follow this God.
You say, there is no evidence either way. I will blindly follow this religion.
Obviously this leaves you with a benefit. You will go to heaven if God exists. Not me. However, I do not believe that the statistical chance of God existing is high enough for me to bother worshipping him. If it was, I would need to live in a bunker on the off chance that a meteor crashes into my house. (Obviously I am talking statistics here with absolutely no regard to faith. I do not expect you to be convinced in any way by this part of my post.)
Puccini,
I never said evolution was fact. Though as far as I am concerned, it is as sure as anything else taught in school.
People who believe in god often are bad in science not all but good number. How about when Christians thought everything revolved around us so if god was all knowing why didn’t he tell them all the simple things how come we had to learn it all. There is so many religions out there its near impossible to tell which one is real
the ster,
Of course I believe in the Bible’s existence. But I am not saying “I do not believe that this ancient book has relevence in my life today.”, because I think it has never revelance. Obviously the Bible all fits together very nicely, aside from the contradictions, but so does Harry Potter. There has to be more than that.
lolatreligion,
You are not helping me.
ps. The Christians knew just like everyone else that the earth revolved around the sun. They just didn’t want to admit it. Big difference.
@ jesterballz
as long as you believe that we are nothing than a bag of chemicals worth around $60, you might have the advantage.
But if you believe that there is something more than the chemicals around you, things start to change, because you will have to come out of your shell and look for this “beyond”. The God that we know has changed our lives, and this is the ultimate proof that we can offer. Everything else is just theory. If this statement of faith that I make does not change me, then all I say is useless. Ultimately, we Christians believe that faith that changes lives can save us and gives us hope for eternity, not proven facts and lab test results.
JB
and there is my friend, much more than that. What I’m saying is that if I knew you I could show when you were ready, but you aren’t now.
Lola you said that it’s near impossible to find the right religion, I disagree! Hold them up to their values what they believe in you will know what they are like.
I’ll explain: In Scotland (true story this) at the beginning of WWII there were many German speaking Catholics (I have to say) living there.
They would have thier sermon in the morning and the English speaking Catholics in the afternoon. When WWII broke out the Germans went in had thier sermon and at the end thier prayer said ‘Dear God bless our boys, help us win the war.’ NOW the ENGLISH speaking Catholics go in the afternoon and have thier sermon and in thier prayer (you know what I’m going to say right!) they say…(Okay, I’ll tell you) ‘Dear God bless our efforts and help us in the war’
Same religion same prayer, different sides. What do you think God thinks of all this, well his son said this in John 13:35.
It’s not easy, there are a lot people out there that will try and fool you but question thier beliefs, get them to prove it. Don’t listen to what man say’s, we always get it wrong. Get them to prove it from the Bible.
i took a piss on the bible and then punched a preist all wile in church. a month later i won the lottery. christeanity is retarted. peaple took a good idea and made a belife system about it. the bible has ben changed numerise times and the peaple that rout it were so dumb they thought the world was flat and it was the center of the univers.
Your assumption has good logical structure on it but your just using the concept of suffering as an excuse that god doesn’t exist you LEFT-BRAIN IDIOT! Strive for the MIDDLE-PATH! I don’t believe in christianity or any religions concept of god anymore. They’re all phoney! As Joseph Campbell once said GOD is a TRANCENDENTAL MYSTERY. I dont’ believe in all religions orthodox concept of god or in the word “GOD” but i do have a GREAT HUNCH in that “MYSTERY”. Science provides us with facts and Intuition serves as our emotional compass. Facts is not the truth it only lead to the TRUTH.
sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssstubed retarted (poor attempt at racial humour) peaple
Would god exist if we (humans that is) did not?
any one going to respond
@ jesterballz
you still have to prove your claim that there are contradictions in the Bible, but let’s not get into that yet. Yes, it all fits very nicely, just as Harry Potter. See JB, it all comes down to how you read that book. The greatest atheists in my home country used to study the Bible really seriously with one purpose in mind: to destroy it. Yet the same book changed the lives of millions of people around the world. When you are open to it, without any preconceived ideas, God can open your mind so that you may understand it. I cannot make you understand the Bible and God’s things as long as you think like an atheist. This is basically what I asked you to read in that chapter from the Bible. As an atheist, you need solid, measurable proofs, because you are still tied to the chemicals around you. As a Christian, I have a different perspective on things, and this is not the fabrication of my mind, or the fabrication of other people’s mind, but the thought that I BELIEVE to be from God. Once I understand God’s way of seeing things, it changes my worldview, but it is still a matter of belief.
I am not trying to sell you another paradigm, because, as I said, a set of beliefs that do not change the inside is useless.
this is silly .
world is a test . not a place to give and give . god tests us . these people suffer if they do not even an education will go to heaven . they won’t be responsible .
but you and me and others we all will be under very big responsibility even for that suffering people . when we are eating the blood of them .
we live in capitalism and it is based on it and on them
if 200 rich people gives %1 of their money there won t be any suffering person in whole world.
are you sleeping ?
there is no suffer there is a big theft .
and the human being must stop the theft .
Although I do see what you are trying to get at there are some huge holes in your rationale.
The biggest point you have gotten wrong is that you are assuming that good and evil is requited instanteously in this life. However if every person that wronged someone in this life was instaneously punished it wouldn’t take long for him to be compulsed into changing for the good. It wouldn’t take that many minutes before every person alive became a walking angel.
However God already created angels (who don’t sin) and had a different purpose for creating humans. We were created to live a life of struggle to come to a conclusion about the purpose of it all. Of all of His creation we are the ones that have a choice to decide whether to believe or not. Because of this we can rise to ranks higher than angels or levels lower than Satan and his folk.
Like my Shaykh mentions, the illiterate person looks at a book and only see the shape and forms of letters and words but can’t see beyond it. The literate person can look at the same book and read it and understand what is going on and see beyond the shape and forms of words and sentences to what the author is getting at.
The spiritually illiterate person will look at the world and only see the form of what is happening. The believer look at the world and see just what the Creator is getting at. They understand the purposes of the plotlines, the struggles, the pain, the joys and everything else.
Every act of good and evil will be requited but not fully until the next life as this life is too lowly to hold the majestic rewards that await those who died as beilevers. It is at the Day of Judgement that everyone will get what they sent ahead.
So this is why your arguement fails. Hitler, Stalin and other butchers will get what is coming to them in the next life not here.
As the Prophet (peace be upon him) mentioned that on the Day of Judgement the human that had suffered more than any other person but died a believer will be shown his place in Heaven for a split second. After seeing just a glimpse of the good that is waiting for him he would be asked “have you ever experienced any hardships” and he will reply “No I haven’t.” Right after that a man will be brought forward who had only experienced joy in this world but never believed. He will be shown his place in hell for a split second and will be asked if he has ever experienced any joy. He will respond “NO I haven’t” after seeing what awaits him.
@ all
please watch your tongues boys, or go take a walk!
burak is not verry smart if (it) thinks that god is testing us.
puccini,
You have hit the nail on the head. We have a different perspective on things.
“I cannot make you understand the Bible and God’s things as long as you think like an atheist”
I cannot make you understand atheism as long as you think like a Christian.
That is the paradoxe. I cannot be a Christian until I pretend to be one. You cannot be an atheist until you think like one.
[...] I said: If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn’t thinking. – George Patton. [...]
burak yemez,
Do you give 1 percent of your salary to charity? Do you give 100? Will you not be punished because you havn’t sold your house to help these people?
i like jasterballz the most.but something is not right.
jesterballz (sorry)
@ jesterballz
my advantage is that I have witnessed atheism firsthand, in it’s most horrid instances, and I have seen its consequences. I have also experienced Christ and it changed me. You do not need to PRETEND to be a Christian in order to understand my perspective. Nobody can pretend to be a Christian. But anybody can be changed by God and see the truth. And this is what you need, JB. You need Jesus. Not Catholic church, not Baptist church (btw, I am Baptist), not anything else. Just Jesus.
Shadow, I’ve posted a continuation of your thread here. I’m also working on a response to your first comment as well.
steveof is the smartist and sexyist male ever
albert,
This is not some kind of chatroom for you and Shadow.
well
about sufering and how good being are prevented from suffering well that’s ammmmmmmm (pullshit)
coz prophets themselves suffered by the way i’m a muslim by the way and prophets are messenger from god to us (you may not believe in the concept but it’s true) and about free will
well do you believe in reasons and how every body exists for a reason any ways a guy i read about was blind and yet he got a phd in literature he’s got a free will instead of being not complete!!
another guy was completely peralized he couldn’t use any of his parts but his mouth and guess what he became a programmer !!!!!
soo free will exists aslong as you have ur mind
and for those who were born mindless i mean (mentally retarted) well there is certainly a reason maybe they are there for good people to help them and gain what we call(hasanaat) it’s a reward for good deeds or any other good reson
coz if there’s noo god then how this very organized life existed in our world every thing happens for a reason and with a source i mean a begening so we need something that creats the reason and the source and that thing is reasonless and sourceless so do you know any thing like that ……….well i know it’s GOD
i’m sorry my english is not that good so i hope i said it right please reply to me @ davieduck15@hotmail.com
@ eof
go take a walk or something man! If you need attention here, at least try to me smarter than a drunk rat!
you tell him jesterballz
just because im jrunk doesnt mean im a rat you smelly pirote hoker
http://www.shoutwire.com/viewstory/36619/The_Hubble_Deep_Field_The_Most_Important_Image_Ever_Taken_Video_
No God could have made this. We are stupid if we think so, in away. We’ll be shown all this by other…..not god, with patience and good will.
right on (bee on)
has anyone ever expereinsed life after death
im leving fare well
@ bee
I watched that earlier today. I would say “Nobody but God could have made this”.
@ eof
I am surprised that you actually followed a gew posts, my dear eof, since you noticed that. After all, you may be indeed smarter than a drunk rat
but you still have to prove it
i graduated with an iq of 241 puccini can u beat that
im also stund thats why i cant relly spell to good. puccini
stoned
hmmm
im going to go look at porn. have fun arguing with one another my dearests
by the way im the second coming
Read most of however many comments there are on this blog. Interesting. So many different inputs here, it made for a great read. Funny how opposing views were…coming in with ‘God does not exist, this is why…’ versus ‘Guys, you really need God.’
I myself am…dabbling. I’m not going to have the stereotype atheist arrogance to ‘pronounce’ there is no God and try to use my human mind to disprove it. But neither am I going to speak as someone devout, encouraging you to go to Church blahblah. A couple of years ago the comment ‘You need God’ or ‘A little bit of Jesus in your life is the way to go’ probably would have irritated me to no end.
But nevermind. I mainly want to bring up one thing -puccini- mentioned; I won’t quote directly, it was his first post as far as I remember. Barges in to the comment section asserting that the people writing against the existence of God were petty, coming from broken lives, with heads in dirt. Something not dissimilar to that. Hey, what a way to enter to talk from a Christian perspective. Consider that if you yourself have always been brought up a Christian and always kept and valued your faith, so be it – lucky you. But take it upon yourself to keep to your teachings an d do NOT look down upon others. You seem to scorn them, how is that right, how is that Christian? Sure, they are ’sinning’ non-Believers, but are you free from sin? Until you can say to me, that you are free from sin, do NOT scorn them, say they have broken lives. What they do is wrong, but no more wrong than your own sins. You have no right to fire derogatory comments at them, especially not as a Christian. Turn the other cheek and be humble.
Hopefully, take that as a lesson to your own teaching. I’m not sure about my own beliefs, but I know enough to say I have a little faith. I’m just not the person generally inclined to spend a day in prayer or worship/joyfully give thanks too much. It’s one of my flaws.
Sorry to not overly contribute to the God existing debate. I just wish some people wouldn’t inflict on others their beliefs, or non-beliefs. World might be a better place that way. PS christians, stop quoting from the bible to say things/prove things/illustrate things to atheists. Its annoying to have quotes from a book you dont believe in flung at you, and its not convincing at all.
@ eof
Hallelujah… My eyes have been opened…. Let’s hope they don’t lock you up….
bee,
I believe that you are right.
Hey Christians,
It just occured to me that with so many planets, there is obviously a big chance of intelligent life on a few. Do you think it is possible that God has created a few other worlds like ours? Is it our “mission” to find them?
This is serious.
decaf,
Thanks for the ps.
It really is futile to quote the bible at me. You guys must understand that that is useless and illogical. Any Christian philosopher will tell you that.
the ster
So Satan just appeared out of nowhere then? Is that what your say? Yes God cannot be around evil/sin it doesn’t mean it wasn’t created by him. That’s why Satan is the “Fallin Angel” because God cast him out of heaven.
I think that the concept of God is a well meant gesture. I do believe in God, he has spoke with me on several occasions (no I’m not crazy). It took years to find him. I felt so disillusioned with the church, rightfully so. How could such an institution prey upon its members so easily and then cover it up or justify it’s actions, or sit upon a golden thrown and preach to me about giving. I felt there was no god. But I knew somewhere in my heart that yes someone was watching over me, too many things in my life happened for it to be coincidence. I think that peoples distaste is not from God but from the humans that took something meaningful and good, twisted it to meet their needs, to justify the rape murder and plundering of the less fortunate or the ones who would not conform to their ideals ahem Spanish inquisition/crusades .
I think that the concept of God is still good. Be good to your neighbor, respect his/her property, give (not to church) to something worthwhile (I support firefighters and battered women)
I think trying to prove/disprove existence of a God is pointless and just goes in circles with trolls nagging us on. Stick with what you believe, if you believe in a cold dark nonexistent afterlife then so be it, if you believe you will be allowed to walk among the heavens in the presence of the almighty then so be it. Personally I believe that my heaven will be surrounded by my loved ones who left me, and I will exist on another plane continuing on gathering knowledge.
@ decaf
Man you are right. I’m sorry for my disrespectful comments… They surely help nobody and bring God no honor.
junaman wrote:
“This is a never ending cycle, so please explain who created your god?”
God is the creator, not a creation. God is never created.
[...] Hey again, Shadow – [...]
Sorry, jesterballz, I’m trying to tie up loose ends here.
I’m also working on a response to your post as well… just ask junaman.
Puccini, I doubt youre sincere when you say that. Hopefully you are and I am making a mistake and mis-interpreting what you said as sarcasm…but surely, it does not bring Jesus and God any honour by insulting or implying everyone else is of a lower standard.
My apologies if you were truly sincere and I have just made my mistake.
Also, to the people going: its just dark, painful, pointless etc – chill a bit. Take a step back and relax maybe? Its enjoyable in some ways to have a good argument/debate (whatever politically correct term you want), just accept that people are as they are. Some believe, some might, some just don’t.
@ decaf
there was no sarcasm in my words, and you don’t need to apologize
God is a product (of human imagination in hardship time to find hope) and Bible is marketing book (where religious using it the get followers and money)
See how advance marketing is in the world now, and bible has so mane years to refine it self. You cannot argue of the exitent of the GOD because religiuos has so many years to find arguement against any posibility that the unbelievers may doubt?
You cannot argue with religious because they are brained washed.
You cannot argue with religiuous because you dont have the power of the mass as the unbelievers always fight this war by themselves and of course never win.
You cannot argue with religiuos because you dont have argueing skill while religiuos have so many to better themselves.
And yes, there are so many wonders, micracles in the world but religiuos people only heard story of the people in their religiuos have those wonderful things, and of course they are sealed with the information that miracles happen with other religious ppl. We the unbelievers also heard story of miracles happen to ppl and we dont care if that guys have religious or not and we happy for that person. Religiuos would not miss that opportunity to … marketing again
. My dad is god hater and once, he want to stop smoking, he stop immediatelly and only smoke occassionally with friend. I dont heard but i see it 
.
You are yourself true god and beleive in yourself
just wanted to add my 2 cents. In Sikhism, life is seen as a ‘test’ type thing. Ur given free will to make ur own decisions in life. You do well and stuff, then you get out of the circle of life and death (dun know name, but its reincarnation). You do bad, then you pay for it. When you die, Dharam Raj (the angel of death if you will), brings out your ‘account’ (what you did good and bad in life). You get rewarded for the good stuff you do, and punished based on the bad stuff you do. Depending on what you did, you are put back into the reincarnation cycle (8.4 million different creautres). The more good things you do, the fewer lives you have to go through. This all makes sense to me and if anyone reading this knows that i made a mistake somewhere, please post a correction, as im still human and prone to making mistakes. Thanks in advance for reading this.
I’m going to keep my beleife simple. I beleive god was created by the powerfull many years ago as a way to control their people. while the emporers, kings, leaders, the whoevers who ruled this earth once, needed the poor to beleive in something as they had nothing. they needed hope, beleif, direction. Religion is the biggest scam of all time, whats worse is that people started to beleive it.
Let me ask you all this, when you wake up everymorning when is your first thought of god.
The world is ever changing, and if it lasts long enough we unfortunatly wont see that religion will fall, and prehaps something new, a new scam will arise to keep people in order.
My god is my job, it allows me to to live, it feeds me, this is what i think about everymorning, this is what i look to for help, without it we have created a world you cant survive in. and where is god to save us.
Dude, you didn’t come up with this argument!
This argument is thousands of years old!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil
Karma can explain all, no prescence of god will affect how the wheel of reincarnation deals life and death. Numerous times I have had arguments over the existence of god but it is useless to argue over
1. whether he exists or not he still represents the all good, all holy
2. free will allows us to mold our own god in the image of ourselves or some other being (again just a representation)
3. to govern a world of free thinking beings one would have to take away free will, any other method would be futile.
4. suffering is neccesary, it is a learning tool tied to our emotions and it makes us better people.
Admit that your a skeptic, try to realise the bible is ,again, merely a representation. The thought of some being to come out of the clouds and end suffering is perposterous and evil. Rivers of blood, rain of fire, biblical diseases, sound familiar? the god of the old testament was vengfull and the mew? complete turnaround. they are two different people. Again, merely representations. People govern themselves, if you have not seen god then look in the mirror. Only people can end peoples suffering, in fact, trade in your ipod for an ethiopians next meal if you don’t beleive me. And then we’ll talk about god
I am a bhuddist yet I can still acknowledge a god or the representation of. God is good and if he does not exist then he lives vicariously through us, I’m good how about you.
Just a thought on the Satan-being-a-fallen-angel thing….
Is this one of the same angels that can commit no sin (as mentioned by someone earlier)?
I’ll try replying to the three points above. Pardon me if I don’t give you absolute answers, only God can give you those.
1. “God gave us free will”. Yes he did, in fact, he himself decided to come to this world as a poor man, which is, in itself, an act of free will. That you couldn’t choose the way you came? True. But given all the rest, he gave you the choice to try and do something about your situation.
2. If a person crossing a road is randomly hit by a truck, does this constitute an act of free will? Yes! He decided to cross the road, didn’t he? Ok, he didn’t decide getting run over by the truck, but that has to do more with the driver’s act of free will, or his incapability to do it.
3. A person is born with a painful and severe disease… Well if an all-loving, all-knowing God weren’t out there who would acknowledge there being a severely ill-person out there? If you, yourself can acknowledge this, then there’s compassion. How much more would there be in who has this person there still living? God himself didn’t avoid suffering.
I honestly can’t see how you can seriously say “I welcome civilised argument in the comments” when your name is “jesterballz”.
In any case, we can do this the easy way (testing for coherency, universality, and uniqueness of claim to truth) or the polemic way (point by point rebuttal/back and forth until no conclusion is reached). Up to you.
I can’t believe I didn’t see this (looks like I need a brush up). Your “proof” is an example of pseudo-logic. Why? Look at point 1 and point 10.
You basically say: “Assume G. Therefore, not G.”
Okay…
…
Second point (from 7 and 8): “G can… G will.”
This is not logical rhetoric. Therefore, this is not logic.
You use free will in the wrong frame of reference. It is exclusively used in the Bible as a choice between choosing God and choosing sin – suffering plays no role in that. Influence the decision, maybe.
What do you think about the Buddhistic notion that life is suffering?
No, the child is not at fault until he/she starts crying for food. Secondly, you ontologically assume a child is always innocent: look here for your supporting evidence (or try raising a kid! Ever hear of the colloquialism “little devil”?).
Again, the frame of reference is with choosing God or choosing sin. But “free will” – as you define – it can be inferred from their decision to get up that morning, or schedule the appointment which made them get there. So no, that doesn’t work either.
Jesus said that people such as these were born to bring glory to God. It is the problem of Christians that we aren’t doing enough to make that happen (whether by medicine or miracle).
Actually, no – sorry. Most of my attentions were caught by the “proof”.
I hope I’ve done this.
I love atheists they are so much fun, God Bless them, and I just could resist saying that ah ha.
They spend so much effort in trying to prove something does not exist!
Keep it coming its so entertaining.
[...] Jesterballz, I’ve migrated the thread to my site for readability/loading time. Taken from this post for readability. [...]
Being a non believer myself i have found that someone wrote in here i believe that people who don’t believe are the ones at cause for sin. I cannot believe that because i am a non believe. i have a hard time believing that someone other than myself has predestined me to something. Now i was brought up as a christian but i honestly dont believe in it all. Id rather just go on with my life as the respectable and consciencious person i am. Sorry if my grammer or spelling is terrible. i am in a bit of a rush to get ready for work while i read this. To decide what religions are bad and what arent is not a correct thing. Yet i can tell you that having a religion go out and purposely try to convert others because they feel their religion is right is wrong. ex. jehova witness. or how ever you spell that. I have seen people harrassed by others who were a part of the group. now there are others that are similar or whatever but honestly god is something that is made up in my eyes for people to have something to believe in. Without something to believe in there is chaos. That was probably how civilization survived for so long. Evolution is possible but with new evidence evolution is not much of a contender here any longer. For those of you who still believe in a god congratulations and continue in doing so. As for my? my belief is to achieve my goals that i have set for myself. when i reach them i just automatically create new goals for myself until my time has come which isnt for a long long time now. All of you are doing a good job so keep it up.
Okay. So you don’t believe in “God”.
How do you explain Jesus Christ? More evidence exists about what He said and did than Plato. We all know Plato was real.
Jesus was real. He walked on our earth. He interacted with people like you and me. He had compassion on the poor, healed the sick and blind, and His words have turned the world upside down! To say there is no God is to say that Jesus never existed b/c Jesus in fact claimed to be God in flesh–the way, the truth, and the life.
What about Jesus? He is all powerful, all knowing and all good.
Isn’t it just possible your idea of God is confused with something else?
Mankind has created suffering, and that is all the more reason we should follow the teachings of Jesus Christ: love our neighbors, love our enemies, and love the Lord our God.
premises #4,5,6,8 are flawed and reflect a pretty juvenile understanding of good and evil.
Why are good beings opposed to suffering? is suffering absolutely “bad”? Parents that discipline their children must be “bad,” governments that imprison criminals must be “bad,” teachers that assign too much homework must be “bad.” Give me a break.
God is just and powerful. The one that suffered can be compensated for their suffering. God did not create in order that you feel pleased with his creation and the amount of suffering or happiness you measure inside it. God created so that the creation can worship him. It is clear what you have decided to do with your having been created.
If God existed…….HE SURE AS HECK WOULDN’T BE SPENDING ALL HIS TIME TALKING TO GEORGE W. BUSH!!!
That pretty much sums it up for me. I don’t believe their is a God but I do believe humans can make choices in their lives and don’t need a guy/gal sitting on a chair in the sky to help them out!!!
But, that’s just me.
Really? What independent evidence exists for the existence of Jesus? What independent accounts survive that can objectively verify the acts he reportedly did? The gospels certainly don’t count as they are clearly biased in their accounts, contradicting each other and probably aren’t first hand accounts either.
As for Plato, there are numerous independent records which prove that he existed. That simply isn’t questionable as such.
dudius.. lets hope your not homo sexual…….. all hope is lost….fag!!!
eof is steveof and yes i relly did do that
im steveof
I have never believed in this “all good” being named god. I am Christian and the God that I believe in acts not all for good, but for the greater good.
“God give us free will”, i dont know about that but I am sure that the people in religious, would be 99% of them being religious when they are born and brainwashed after that. Would you rise your little voice and decide that you dont want to be in that religious when you mum and dad are, when you grand parents are, … I am sure that GOD give you free will to shut your mouth up and follow the steps of the love ones or he will punished you by asking your love ones nagging you to death. Of course GOD give us the unbelievers the free will to not believe in GOD
. GOD would never give this free will to GOD believers. instead GOD gives the believers the free will to believe in other believers’ dream of GOD (and never the dream of the unbelievers 
, others believers’ story of GOD miracle (but never the story of the unblievers’ 
Do you know why the TV adds keep repeating itself over and over again? Do you know why you have to hear the same story about GOD over and over again? If GOD is so great like a TV or fridge, he doesn’t need his believers to advertise for him.
I used to ask myself, so many religious out there, is that means there are many GOD? or just one multiply? If there are that many GOD, that also means that many heavens … and hells. so, which heaven/hell should i go to when i, the unbeliever, died? Maybe I am not allow to go to neither heaven nor hell but stay here on earth, living on another dimension of unbelievers?
. If in that case, I would be more than happy because i can do sin without punushed, can do good without going to boring heaven? If there is only one and one true god, why did he has to multiply? He just need to appear once to get the earth dominance, to turn us the unbelievers into believers and to stop this arguement from long long time ago to far, far away in the future?
BTW, is there anyone here been to heaven or hell? Can you tell me in those places, what people normally do? Lots of ppl talking about punishment in hell. I was wondering, if you are already dead and still can feel the pain in hell, so if i go to heaven, can I still feel my erection?
To those believers out there, for once in your life time, enter this SHOUT without anything relate to DREAM, STORY, BIBLE and evidents about GOD that you cannot even prove without talking BIBLE again and be yourself.
How about a God that isn’t perfect, for perfection would require no need for imperfections such as us, but a God that is simply “more perfect” than us? To the cockroach, we must seem perfect.
Hi JB,
I stopped in to see how many comments your post had generated. Congratulations, you got many hits.
You did ask a serious question about other planets. There is a book (it is not a religious one–as a matter of fact, it assumes evolution) called “Rare Earth” that you may find interesting. Its a relatively new science and theory that is gaining attention. It can be found on Amazon and it is a good read.
Also, I have written a couple of articles related that may interest you:
http://bereans.wordpress.com/2006/08/25/
(btw, I am not referring to you as a fool by this post:)
http://bereans.wordpress.com/2006/04/28/
I recently posted another article on my other blog (it was not related to your post here) that I think largely applies to religion and politics:
http://newssnipet.blogspot.com/2006/10/politics-and-religion_30.html
Kindest regards,
-Jack
SHANE
“So Satan just appeared out of nowhere then? Is that what your say? Yes God cannot be around evil/sin it doesn’t mean it wasn’t created by him. That’s why Satan is the “Fallin Angel” because God cast him out of heaven.”
If you have a child and teach them respect and love etc but they turn out to be a mass murderer. Did you the parent create that or does the free will of the individual come into play?
People choose what they want, you may choose not to accept what I’m saying and as always, that is up to you.
When Jehovah (that’s God’s name) created angels (as with humans) he gave them free will. An angel choose to live a life contrary to God’s will. He became a resister and an accuser AKA Satan the devil.
Hope this answers your question.
“truegod”
To those believers out there, for once in your life time, enter this SHOUT without anything relate to DREAM, STORY, BIBLE and evidents about GOD that you cannot even prove without talking BIBLE again and be yourself.
THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE AND IN ADDITION TO THAT, IT’S A RIDICULOUS REQUEST.
Someone talking about God without referring to the Bible is like a telling a surgeon to use a butter knife instead of a scalple.
Do you know what the problem with relgion today? Mankind. They twist everything to suit themselves. You and I know that it’s a little strange to profess to love God and kill a man in his name and yet our nations do this because some man says it’s okay. The Bible (the authority on matters which they all claim to use) states that we should have love amongst ourselves. I’m replying harshly because you seem to think that I’m brainwashed or something stupid like that. I am nothing of the sort I am myself.
I’m blown away by the number of comments on this post. You, sir, are a genius at traffic generation. Put up a topic like this, and then watch as people flock (pun intended)to give you their opinions.
@ Matt
I say you start doing some research, brother. There are independent accounts, more than you can accept. But that is not the problem. The real problem here is the mindset someone has when dealing with evidence. Let me give you an example. You probably heard of “De Bello Galico”, written by Julius Caesar, an account of the Gaelic war he had in order to conquesr the province of Galia (today’s France). The most recent document that we have today comes from the 4th century AD, almost 500 years later, a copy of a copy of a copy. Yet nobody doubts the authenticity and the faithfulness of that narrative. Yet we also have hundreds of accounts from the very first century and the beginning of the second century AD, less than a 100 years from Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection, all original documents, dated and everything, and people still question the authenticity and faithfulness of these documents. Why? Simply because it is an uncomfortable topic, an uncomfortable character, an uncomfortable message, an uncomfortable legacy. I would call that malevolence at best.
But i think that the first thing a sincere seeker of truth should do is simply do some research before drawing a conclusion and then build a whole worldview on that conclusion.
Is that so far off to think that what created us doesn’t have to be the all perfect all knowing being of the universe, but simply a more powerful or more perfect being than us? So there’s nothing inbetween being human, and being God himself?
Truegod
I was actually looking at the capitals in your posting because there is too much to read other wise but I’ve just digested what you read.
In Jerusalem (I’m talking when Jesus was alive) they used to throw thier rubbish over the walls into a place called Gehenna. It was a place that was made up of sulphur and stuff, it always burned. Only criminals and rubbish was put into Gehanna.
When Jesus was on earth he spoke people going to Gehenna and in the same sentance saying that they wouldn’t return i.e. no chance of a ressurection.
Before I said that makind was at fault for a lot of things. Someone decided to put fear into worship of God and control the people and stated that if you die and you are bad you God will burn you forever. That’s just bull, the Bible doesn’t teach that. Please research this for yourself, here is the news people…HELL DOESN’T EXIST, WHEN YOU DIE YOU JUST SLEEP. Ecclesiastes 9:5 As I’ve been saying all this morning, you need to study the Bible, looking the history of things to understand what is written. I’m no professor, but I’m no simpleton either.
@ XXVII
pertinent question…
I guess each religion will have its own answer. All I can give you is the Christian “version” that I believe. No, there is nothing in between. In Christian theology, God is the perfect being, with the perfect standards, with clear absolutes, and nothing in between Him and us. The main source of knowledge about God comes through revelation, and that revelation is recorded in the Bible.
puccini – extraordinary claims (such as god/jesus existing and performing miracles) demand extraordinary evidence. Bring forth this independent, objective evidence to show that Jesus walked the earth and performed miracles. Show me that he was more than just a preacher, show me adequate proof that his miracles occurred.
My research into the accuracy of the bible is not rudimentary to say the least, the historical inaccuracies within it’s passages as well as the sheer contradictions are almost innumerable. The gospels are most likely not first hand accounts and were cherry picked centuries later by people motivated by political goals rather than faith.
puccini,
Excellent posts, brother. Hop on over to my site if you have the time, I’m interested in getting your contact info.
Why did you eliminate polytheistic religions? Hinduism, for example?
Your logical progression is fine for the assumptions you’ve laid out, but perhaps these assumptions are wrong. For instance the Christian/Jewish God fails to match up here. Read Isaiah 53 and the description of the Messiah contained there is one of a God who finds good in suffering. Thus the God the Bible describes cannot be opposed to suffering. He is opposed to evil – He is just. However He is also merciful, so He doesn’t end evil immediately. If he did we would all die now – the famous “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Thus He does not end all evil now. Instead He prefers to wait and bring some out of their corruption into joy, which brings Him glory… delaying the day of justice until a time of His choosing. Until then the good suffer and the evil prosper (read through Psalms). This has nothing to do with free will; it has everything to do with a harmonious God who perfectly unites justice, mercy, love, suffering, and joy.
@ Matt
Since you claim to be an honest seeker of truth, and I believe you are, maybe it;s time for you to start doing some more research…
I recommend you a few books.
Josh McDowell – The New Evidence that demands a verdict
Lee Strobel – The case for a Creator
Lee Strobel – The case for Christ
Lee Strobel – The case for Faith
God, by a popular definition is: One’s ultimate reality or that than which there is nothing greater in one’s life. Recent studies seem to indicate that humans are “wired” for a god and that we ALL have a god. That god might be money, power, position and even an all consuming belief and dedication to a concept or particular value. It can be said that even atheists have a god….their dedication to their idea. Certainly, it can be said that the God of the Christians and the Jews is their ultimate reality. He is now, always was and forever shall be. God does NOT exist in the sense that some folks would like him to. For something to exist, it must be created. God was NOT created. As explained in the Athanasian Creed: Uncreated is the Father; uncreated is the Son; uncreated is the Spirit. The Father is infinite; the Son is infinite; the Holy Spirit is infinite. When we try to make God conform to OUR idea of existence, we demean him, anthropomorphize him and turn him into an idol.
Christians are sad ppl.
dont come find me…go find the person who wrote that post.
Just stop on October 30th, 2006
See this is whats wrong with our society everybody just talks about things that in the end really don’t matter, right and wrong are just words people and the only word that I need is “Imagine” (JL).
That was genius m8, cheers.
Puccini, you are by far the smartest DUMBASS I’ve seen between these comments. Now don’t nobody come at me with, “oh, we should talk like civilized human beings and not insult each other”. That’s just a defensive line people use when they are being told the TRUTH, and know they can’t handle it.
You’re an egomaniac who like most of these people, say that they make efforts to lead life without sin because god will favour them. This, as well believing in “god” is just a comforting lie. An illusion designed to ease your mind. Because life and the universe are so complex, it creates insecurity. People become unsure, the complexity overwhelmes them. We don’t know what to believe.
So instead of searching and discovering, and keeping an open mind. Trying to understand that wich we do not yet understand. You explain everything in a manner that you CAN understand. A manner wich isn’t frightening. An all-powerfull entity wich has our best interest at heart.
While the truth is that this is just a comfortable explanation that you can live with. The reason I call you the smartest DUMBASS puccini. Is because you are seriously full of shit, but you have a talent for making it seem like you actually know what your saying and that you believe what you are saying.
Like when you said that jesterballz shouldn’t pretend to care about african children who are dying everyday and shouldn’t use them to prove his point. He wasn’t using them, he was using a FACT. He was using a FACT to prove his point. You didn’t even respond with a normal counterargument, you just used guilt to attack him, and annul his argument. So in fact, you are the one who used those childeren.
The dumbest things I’ve read so far:
1: “Africans get Aids because they have so much sex”
Luffy, did you get shot in the head when you were little? Do you have any idea how stupid and insulting that is? It wouldn’t surprise me if you and puccini were related.
2: “Someone had to have had created the universe because it could not have created itself. So god created it.”
My argument to this would be, “well then who created god”. Since something as complex as the universe had to have been created by someone then it is only obvious to assume that something had to have had created god.
Another morron even goes so far as to arguing this valid, and frankly decisive point, by saying, “God was never created, he is the actuall creator”.
This argument is so stupid that it almost cancels out any further argument. Can you imagine? How far people will go to defend their believe in lies.
If god can just BE, without ever being created, Why can’t the universe just BE without ever being created? Or why can’t something else like a natural phenomenon that we do not yet understand be responsible for the creation of the universe?
Because like I just said, the idea of a man, or an entity wich loves us and is all-powerfull is much easier to understand and thus believe. Like I just said, people fear what they don’t understand. So they make up things to make it all easier.
So far I havn’t read a single rational argument against my earlier comments. And I’m not really expecting any either.
1: Either you believers are to stupid, naive, feeble minded etc.
2: You just ignore it all together because you know you can’t face up to my rational, logical and simple explanations.
3: Because number 2 scares the living dead out of you.
But it’s probably all of the above.
Main Entry: 1faith
Pronunciation: ‘fAth
1 a: firm belief in something for which there is no proof
Why would someone wan’t to believe in something for wich there in no proof? Because it makes them feel good, the end justifies the means.
puccini – even casual research into the texts you mention reveals that, at best, they are pseudo-science. They are far from being any kind of independent source while the findings and methods used to reach those conclusions are certainly not scientifically (or even logically) based.
@ Matt
Don’t automatically assume you know what those books talk about. Update me AFTER you read the books
@ DC
man, you left me speechless. Thanks for calling me smart though, it reveals a great character that is to be commended (I’m talking about yours, of course). What really turns me down is the fact that you barge in without any arguments of your own. You know, some of your comments can be labeled “ignorant”, but then I assume you had little time to read closely what I said, or many others have said in this thread. But then again, as I already said before, I cannot expect you to talk favorably about God when you don’t know Him. So for now I hope you find comfort in your pseudo-logical reasoning. Man, you are entitled to your own opinion, just as I am entitled to my own opinion. So let’s keep things cool and debate the ideas, not attack the person. Don’t shoot the painter simply because you don’t like his painting.
@ Matt,
If there is no God, what is the meaning and purpose of the Hebrew nation throughout history? Do you discount the extraordinary history of the Jewish people?
puccini – I am not about to go and spend good money and even more valuable time on books that internet research very quickly shows to be full of fallacies and intellectual ignorance and/or dishonesty.
The indepth reviews and analysis available show that the books you mentioned, especially the author Lee Strobel, are simply not reputable as being any sort of objective reference material, while the arguments presented within them are the same old things which have been disproved time and again.
If you wish to bring a point to the discussion, please make it a new a valid one.
I do not discount history, it is actually a very fascinating subject. I do, however, discount the history account presented in the old testament as scientific findings of many fields (archaelogy, geologic, etc) have disproved tales ranging from the global flood, the exodus from egypt, even times and locations of such things as battles, cities and characters mentioned.
As for the jewish nation in general, they do what the rest of humanity does – they work to provide the best possible environment they can so the next generation can survive and thrive. Propagation of the human species is a biological imperative hard wired into us all, we may approach it from different perspectives but it is the one thing we have in common.
Three core premises:
1. God is all powerful
2. God is all-knowing
3. God is all-good
I affirm 1 and 2, but 3 depends entirely on how one defines “good,” a core issue for this discussion.
Secondary Primises:
1. Assume God exists.
2. God is all powerful
3. God is all good
– Again, define “good”
4. All good beings are opposed to suffering
– Why? A simple example might be that parents (even “good” parents, whatever good is) punish their children thus causing suffering in the service of some supposedly worthy goal (social conformity or what have you). Schools induce academic suffering (failing grades) in hopes of motivating maximum achievement. Our penal system iinduces suffering in some (fines, restriction of freedom) to protect the whole. Not only that, but the heights of human virtue can be seen most clearly when contrasted to the depths of human depravity. Posttraumatic growth only occurs AFTER exposure to a potentially traumatic event. Is it at least possible to consider that all “good beings” (again, however one defines it) might NOT be opposed to suffering (however you want to define that) in light of the potential gains related to that suffering? If this is even a possibility (and I believe it is a very distinctive possibility), the argument unravels below this point…
In my darkest moment fetal and weeping
The moon tells me a secret,
“My confidant, as full and bright as I am
This light is not my own
A million light reflections pass over me.
Her source is bright and endless,
She resuscitates the hopeless,
Without her we are lifeless satellites, drifting.”
@ Matt
Our little debate started when you asked for evidence that Jesus really existed. I suggest you start with Joseph Flavius. Anyway, what I noticed in your tone is that you are not willing to change your opinion even if you were provided with the original documents right now, on your desk. As long as an author shares your view, you eagerly embrace his ideas. But the moment something shows up that contradicts what you think, you even refuse to check that. Back to Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel. These folks simply take evidence that exists (and you will find plenty in the bibliography), they review it, analyze it and draw some conclusions. The do not PRODUCE evidence, they analyze it. You may not like their conclusions, and you are free to dislike them, but at least you are presented the evidence that you asked for. And you can analyze that yourself. But then again, if you are determined not to accept any of this evidence based on the mindset that you already have, I wonder why do you even ask for evidence?
@ Matt
oh, and about the claims that you make that archeology and geology disprove the “tales” you mentioned, I suggest that you get updated on archeology and geology. Maybe the latest discoveries (within the past 10 years) as well as the older ones will give you some more evidence… I hope you will have the honesty to treat such evidence fairly
I have changed my opinion on many things in my life, based upon evidence that comes to hand. Please do not presume to judge my character when our exchanges have been minimal at best.
The author’s ability to come to independent conclusions in their books is dubious. According to what objective reviews I can find, they rely on pseudo-science and long disproved fallacies to back up their analysis. That is no way to come to any sort of rational conclusion, their premise seems somewhat debatable as well. It would appear that they start by holding a belief and looking for evidence to support it, instead of the other way around which is the only intellectually honest way of doing things.
My research into biblical history is as up to date as possible without doing a dedicated course on the subject. The current scientific findings safely conclude that the major biblical tales range from extremely unlikely to flat out impossible.
For example, the biblical account of a global flood is impossible on many fronts while the exodus from egypt is not backed up by any independent evidence at all.
Let me assure you that current scientific findings safely do not conclude anything safely, just yet. But I guess we feed from different scientific sources. Here, I’ll give you another starting point, follow this link, and please take more than 5 minutes to come up with a definitive label.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/
what do you call independent evidence anyway?
Well, there is one approach to religion, as far as I am aware, none of the current crop of evangelical atheists, such as Dawkins, have adequately addressed, and your arguments only show that the arguments for religion are not properly understood.
Perhaps those arguments have not been properly, made though, in the first place.
Even if God does not exist, it is entirely possible religion fulfills some human needs that are not likely to be fulfilled by anything else.
My evidence for this is the simple observation that religious beliefs have been found in every human society ever discovered, and I would posit that there is a deep ergonomic need for these beliefs.
Beliefs have evolved over the course of human history certainly, and they have been subject to two primary forces: inertia (also called tradition) and reason, which has constantly humanized religious beliefs, and adpted them more to human needs.
If if found a glove, and it it fit my hand quite well, would I necessarily have to know how, why, by whom it it was made? Perhaps I only need to observe that it fits me quite well, and is suited for a purpose.
The ergonomics of belief.
[...] This is an article that I find very interesting, titled “The Possibility of a God“. [...]
@ jesterballz
follow this link:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/answersbook/existence1.asp
@ Matt
for more contemporary evidence (contemporary with jesus) follow this link as well:
http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/jesusexisthub.html
I won’t go into detail about that link. But it states that Hitler was an atheist, when in fact, he himself has stated he was doing the work of the lord. He was quite religious…
Although I appreciate the thought that was put into the post- as well as the modicum of civility it adhered to- I must point out that this argument is really nothing new. Which isn’t to say that it carries no force, merely that it has been countered before. Look up any research on “the Problem of Evil” and you’ll find that the arguments about this have been rather exhaustive, and that your conclusions- while rational and sane- are far from irrefutable.
Well there have been several posts that have pointed out the faulty logic, point by point, of the original post.
Another problem with the original post is that you cannot disprove the existence of God. That would imply you have infinite knowledge. That would make you God.
Philosophers who do not believe in God have realized the problem with this sort of argument and usually proclaim they are agnostics because this position is impossible to defend logically.
It has been an interesting discussion nevertheless.
I confess that this discussion is just too long to read. So I will say this. I used to be rational. Once I would have said you were misunderstanding the meaning of the word “good” but attributing human standards to God. But the reality is that Christianity is true and yes, apologetically, to the exclusion of other religions.
Why do I know that? well, look around…this world is screwed up. Some would say Fubar’d. every religion in the world speaks of men redeeming themselves from this muck we live in, call it sin, suffering, neediness, lack of understanding, there are many words. Jesus is the center point of a story that speaks of THE ONE who made all of this coming back to fix it.
This is the only religion that makes sense in a world that we obviously can’t fix. How long have we been at it now? seems to be getting worse sometimes. The story I believe ends with The Maker fixing it himself because we just can’t do it.
Some will say I am too weak to do it myself, thus I look to someone else (Jesus) to do it. Not so, I am plenty strong enough to try and try to my despair. Even now I try and fail daily. But deep down, I realize I need Him to do it for me.
my two cents…
If you have a spare ten minutes read this http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/eagl01_.html it’s a critique in the London Review of Books of Richard Dawkins’ book: “The God Delusion” which similarly to the above uses logic to explain why god can’t exist. It’s a powerful argument. Quoting the article: “Dawkins holds that the existence or non-existence of God is a scientific hypothesis which is open to rational demonstration.”…”Believing in God, whatever Dawkins might think, is not like concluding that aliens or the tooth fairy exist. God is not a celestial super-object or divine UFO, about whose existence we must remain agnostic until all the evidence is in.”…”They (the Jews in the Old Testament) had faith in God in the sense that I have faith in you. They may well have been mistaken in their view; but they were not mistaken because their scientific hypothesis was unsound.”
I haven’t read Dawkins book, but the article is very compelling and seems to address some of the arguments made above. Have a read.
I agree with you completely that all religions are crap. Any religion that holds hell to be true is just a shit religion as far as I am concerned. And let me also say that I fully acknowledge the 50/50 chance that God might or might not exist. But here is where I disagree with the specifics of your argument. Free will is the most important thing in the world. It is of the utmost importance that we stand or fall of our own accord. It is also of the utmost importance that WE take responsibility for the happiness and well-being of our fellow humans. God can’t interfere everytime one of us fucks up or does something horrible to another person. Maybe God went through a period where he tried to interfere and it ended up causing more shit? Maybe God started the whole Universe going and then left us to our own devices to see if we were worth the effort? Maybe God’s obligation to us was simply the allowance of the possibility of our existence?
After all, most, if not all suffering, is simply the result of apathy, indifference, greed, or ignorance of the rest of us, and that’s not God’s fault.
It wouldn’t shock me if God doesn’t exist, but I don’t blame him for suffering. Most of the time, it is just people who are to blame. Sometimes, it is genetics. But who knows how much of the disease and genetic disorders that exist are our own fault? Between pollution, bad diet, all the extra electromagnetic radiation that gets put out by every electronic device in the world? I don’t know all the answers to these questions. But I think it is more important that we as a species fight for ourselves, depend on ourselves, fight for eachother, and try to better life for everyone in order to deserve this gift called life. Even if that gift was simply a random occurence, which it might be, it is still a gift worth having.
i’m a “recovering” evangelical. Two years at bible college cured me of that mess. How? I learned that in 300AD or so, all the bishops of the Holy Roman Church of the Holy Roman Empire had a get together to vote on what would be in the Bible. That which did not fit the voted upon religious narrative was thrown out and buried forever.
My little mind expanded that day and said, “huh?”
Many sects of christianity were using many different texts and believing many different things, and this was a major political problem for the Holy Roman Empire, which had standardized on Christianity becuase it made things tidy.
It is probably a mistake to use texts from various religions to validate the existance of God.
“but the Bible is the word of God!”, the christians cry…
well Bill Hicks proved it’s not.
“Go get your bible!”
“What’s it say on the cover?”
“uh…. King James’ version….”
That wasn’t hard, was it?
Why does the verified fact that SOME of the information in the Bible mean that it ALL is true?
I would suggest that it is more like historical fiction. Setting fatastic tales in a real historical setting does not make them true. Does the fact that there really is a temple of Solomon really have to mean that God spoke to Soloman to give him the design? Maybe he just could afford great architects.
Spiderman movies are set in New York. Does that make Spider Man real?
(BTW, Solomon’s temple had thousands of incense burners that would swing above the assembled worshipers. Some of these have been excavated by archeologists. A resin in the burners was revealed by chemical analysis to be hashish…)
none of this has anything to do with good or evil, or even the existence of some sort of higher itelligence or deity anyway.
there is good and evil. thats why good people feel shitty when they hurt someone they love and why assholes don’t give a damn. Love is real and Hate is real. Life and conciousness is real and you can leave this existence with no guarantee that the mind you inhabit will continue in any recognizable way. (DO NOT reply with Bible verses, i took care of that above!)
“a young man took L S D today and realized that all matter is comprised of slowly vibrating energy, conciousness is a reflection of the universe experiencing itself subjectively, death is an illusion and we are the imagination of ourselves. here’s chuck with the weather…”
-Bill Hicks
God and Allah and Krishna and Zeus and Bob or what have you are names that humans give to something they somehow know is there but cannot relate to in any meaningful way because we are stuck in these carbon bodies and electrical nervous systems, and whatever we attach these names and concepts to is somwhere else.
Some monkey gets a glimpse of something in it’s mind one night and 2000 years later christians and moslems and jews are still killing each other over whose version of the same damn novel is the one true word of God. or Jehovah, or Allah. or whoever.
Religion has nothing to do with God. or whatever.
I joined the Church of the Subgenius some years after I woke up from my very spurious fire and brimstone beliefs. After all those tent meetings as a kid resulted in an adult that just functions better as a member of a cult. I felt ok about it because i knew it was a scam before i sent “JR” Bob Dobbs my hard earned 30 dollars. besides, if I die and go to hell, I get triple my money back.
“pull the wool over your own eyes”
blissamerica
“print”, you really dont need to be so rude. argue don’t insult
answersingenesis is another site which apparently starts from a conclusion and then looks for evidence to support it, which is not a rational means of deduction. The scientific fallacies and falsehoods on that site are near legendary in their scope, though the use of pseudo-science therein does highlight how some people can be sucked in by it.
For a proper scientific analysis I suggest both http://www.talkorigins.org or http://www.creationtheory.org
Independent evidence stems from science, more or less, since the scientific method relies heavily on being objective and rational – using only evidence which can be verified and leaving nothing to guesswork. You need to use evidence to reach conclusions, to use clearly identifiable facts to establish a hypothesis which is then tested again and again. Then it becomes a theory which stands until it is either disproven or a better theory established.
And please, for the sake of rational thought everywhere, do not attempt to say that Intelligent Design or Creationism are valid theories.
Problem with believers that they keep ask the non believers to study bible (or any religious book) to understand more about the bible and religious history in order to us the non believers to argue with them. How funny
!How many religious out there may I ask? It is your religious, have you study the bible thoroughly? We, the non believers argue base on facts and logics, we dont base our argue on non sense books, on stories, on dreams or all the kinds. If you study math, and you find an error in the text books, that’s you knowledge helping you finding the error. If you study bible, how do you know the author make a mistake or not? You dont! Why you dont, because the bible is the books of believe and not the books of logic. Either you believe in it or you beleive in it. That’s right, you have no choice but believe. If you are forced to believed (when you are kid and your parents tald you believe in Bible is the right thing to do, when you growing up, and still believe in it without using any logical that you study at school to doubt your believed), would i called it brain washed?
I asked the believers in this blog stop using DREAM, FAIRY TALES BIBLE, STORIES and be yourself for once, THINK about it and protect your believe.
To ster, if you think that it is rediculous to be yourself, then i have nothing to say
I know I know, the bible also told you that GOD does not have an physical form, GOD cannot be proved, be seen but be felt, be dreamt.
I am even sure that all the preachs talking about the bible differently, eventhough they come out from same school (compare yourself with your friends to see what i meant). Therefore, they would teach the believers differently about the BIBLE because they would understand the BIBLE differently as there is no logic but belief. Are you sure you been taught the correct version and meaning of BIBLE, and GOD?
I dont say GOD is all good or all bad, I dont say
GOD exist or not, what I am saying here GOD is the product of human imagination in hardship time and some people using it to create bible as a marketing. GOD is hope and GOD is the GOD-believers believe. GOD exists in believers’ mind/heart/body/whatever but never in the non believers’. The GOD non believers also have believe that GOD never exist and they are they True God as the non believers believe in themselves.
For me in particular, I would never worship a middle east guy, or an Indian or a Chinese or a Ox or a dick/cunt (some tribes in Africa do, i think
The presence of suffering does not in any way eliminate the presence of God. Just because evil exists does not mean there is no good thing in this world, or in man.
I say your argument is too shallow.
Why not ask, why do sufferings exists? Who caused them?
Smoke pot, and meet God for yourself. Any questions?
[...] I’ve been reading this theory The Possiblity Of A God and I find it … interesting, especially the part where so many people try to convince this person that God does, indeed, exist. And I being a Muslim really do believe that God exists. [...]
To anyone reading this I pose one simple request and a corresponding question. Go outside at night and look up into the sky, what do you see? No matter how you decide to respond to that question we can all agree that we are looking at a place outside of ourselves, outside of our history. How can an event, or series of events that occured on one planet, interpreted by one species, define the structure and existence of the force that holds this universe together? Or better yet, put it into existence?
The air was cold and still that night
Twas filled with winters gloom
I stopped and sat ‘neath mirrored light
That shone down from the moon
To wile away the weary hours
I up took pen in hand
I forged a thought , I gave it power
That some might understand
Imagine if you will my friend
A black dog and a white
They share your soul they live within
And to the death they fight
The one it’s name is Devil
It’s hearts as dark as sin
The other call it Angel
For it shines truth within
The most well fed will grow stronger
As still they fight each day
T’will rise one day t’will kill the other
And in your soul t’will stay
-Brian Reason
@questionme
I think you just completely owned religion
This is getting long now, and I haven’t had time to read the whole thing. Try subscribing to the rss: http://cynicpad.wordpress.com/comments/feed/
to keep up to date.
Now, jester, why don’t we pull this big thing apart a little more, and start dealing with issues one by one, instead of this “your argument is invalid, but mine is absolutely correct” tennis match. Who don’t you do a post for every few points & clarify yourself a little more. You will probably get a much more fruitful discussion.
Go read Richard Dwkins “The God Delusion”, and have a look at Penn and Teller’s Bullshit episode about the Bible:
Both are here:
http://richarddawkins.net/article,240,n,n
Truegod
Heres the thing. You are casting people with the same brush. I’m a londoner, I live in Australia and I’m not young. When I was a teenager I spent years with people of different faiths asking them to explain me why they felt they were right I’ve been involved with all kinds of faiths searching for the truth. The fact is I rejected the whole thing when I was about 27. I thought it was all a load of bull, but I still believed in a God. After a few years I went to the British Museum and would look at the ancient artifacs there, I would compare the history of the Assyrians and Alexander the Great with what was written in 1st and 2nd Kings. I spent Read the book of Acts when I was in the Greek part of the museum, looking at the Gods of Athena, Artemis and alike and you know what, the Bible had living history to support everything that it ever had in detail. It has never ever been proved wrong. I’ve tried to prove it wrong myself you see, that’s why I know where YOU are coming from and that’s why I have the conviciton that I have. It doesn’t make me brain washed, I can tell you how the scribes behaved (the ones that copied the Bible) this is all available if you study Higher Criticism (the systematic attack on the Bible) They were extremely accurate and proud of there work it was thier life. You cannot know this until you study the Bible. I’m not even telling to read the book itself man, but if you go out of your way to try and disprove it, then you will open it and read for yourself.
you don’t offend me, you can’t I don’t have all the answers either, I believe the Bible does. Take care
Hi
First I’m so sorry because my English is very poor, but I’ll try explain my opinion and your logic mistake.
1. Assume God exists. – OK
2. God is all powerful – OK
3. God is all good – OK
4. All good beings are opposed to suffering – FALSE
No. There is good things that causes suffering. Imagine a mother that have a son and he is a dangerous criminal. He is hidden in your mother’s house. So, she telephones to police and informs about your son. She makes a good thing, but it causes suffering. Suffering to your son and suffering to her. There is a lot of examples.
5. All good beings who are able stop suffering will do so immediately – FALSE
No, too. Like above, it’s wrong.
Unhapply (or happly) the suffering is to the times the only way to learn some lessons. C.S Lewis says that the suffering is the God’s megaphone.
Read C.S Lewis, he wrote a great book about the suffering, a really great book.
6. God is opposed to suffering (from 3 and 4)
The 4 is FALSE!
7. God can stop suffering completely and immediately (from 2) – OK
8. God will eliminate suffering completely and immediately (6 and 7)
The 6 is FALSE!
9. Suffering exists – OK
10. Therefore, God does not exist (8 and 9)
Therefore, it’s FALSE!
================
How I already say, your logic is missed.
Some people had tried through the logic to prove that God not exist. All missed. Why? Because the existence (or no) of God can’t be proved. This is made through the faith.
Arthur,
I write to you as a practicing Christian, BTW, but I have to disagree with some of what you just said.
(Please accept my apologies if this is a language problem rather than a logic problem – I wish I could write a second language as well as you write English!)
A valid criticism of many Christians is that they appear to leave logic and reason to one side, and fall back on meaningless platitudes like “you must believe” and “read the Bible”, which are statements that only make sense when one is already convinced of the argument.
It is seemingly impossible to turn a convinced atheist into a Christian through logic. However, many good, intelligent people have trouble with Christianity (or, for that matter, any other religion).
When talking to these people, my aim is not to immediately convince them that God exists, but to try to convince them that it is NOT clearcut that God doesn’t exist. I am fully in favour of clear argument.
Just because 10 does not logically follow from the previous nine points, does not mean that it is “FALSE” (as you write.)
It only means that it is “UNPROVEN”.
It must be noted that logic errors abound on both sides of the “debate”. For example the claim that “most religious people aren’t scientists” is true… but so is the claim that “most non-religious people aren’t scientists”
There have been a few good books by people who have intelligence and intellectual integrity, but also believe in God.
The one that I recommend to scientists is “Things a Computer Scientist Rarely Talks About” by Donald Knuth.
Donald Knuth was one of the most respected computer scientists of the post-war era, and the inventor of such things as the QuickSort algorithm, used today (in variations) by pretty much any database or spreadsheet.
Mark
PS – if you read up about half-way, you’ll see my own analysis of the 10 points, which hasn’t (yet) been de-constructed by any of the committed atheists. I’m with you on the “needless suffering”.
@ Matt
If there was no Great Flood, why do we find fossils literally everywhere–including the tops of mountains?
I know that I’m tired of hearing the “an enormous lake used to be here zillions of years ago” line.
BTW, you DID discount the extraordinary history of the people of Israel. Their history is unlike any other in the world. Why are the eyes of the world fixated on the nation of Israel even to this very day?
Why have so many other great civilizations all but vanished from the earth?
@ Matt
Good morning, my man. I took a look at the websites you proposed, and it is exactly as I told you before. You are ready to accept only sources that support your view. Now let me tell you something that you will find hard to chew. Science has never been neutral. When you talk geology and archeology yes, there are facts, there are straight things that are unearthed, and those things are neutral. The moment they get into the scientist’s hands… well, that’s where the problem starts. An evolutionist and a creationist scientist will tell you a different story about the same object that they probably even digged together. It’s all based on their general view about the work that they are doing. There is no neutral science, but the interpretation of facts is always according to the worldview of the group of scientists doing the research, and that should be common knowledge by now. And let me point out a phrase written clearly in one of the websites you proposed:
http://www.talkorigins.org/ says this:
The primary reason for this archive’s existence is to provide mainstream scientific responses to the many frequently asked questions (FAQs) that appear in the talk.origins newsgroup and the frequently rebutted assertions of those advocating intelligent design or other creationist pseudosciences.
That’s exactly what you said about answersingenesis.org – “answersingenesis is another site which apparently starts from a conclusion and then looks for evidence to support it”. Well, that’s exactly what your site does! but it even goes forward and explains the word “mainstream”, or what you would call “independent”. Listen to this:
The Talk.Origins Archive is a collection of articles and essays that explore the creationism/evolution controversy from a mainstream scientific perspective. In other words, the authors of most of the articles in this archive accept the prevailing scientific view that the earth is ancient, that there was no global flood, and that evolution is responsible for the earth’s present biodiversity.
Isn’t that straight up biased or what? Let me introduce you to the same behavior in the next website you proposed:
http://www.creationtheory.org/
However, creationists have undoubtedly discounted this in their minds as yet another fraud, just as they dismiss virtually all of the geological, paleontological, and astrophysical research that shows that the Earth is billions of years old. The creationist movement is very powerful in America because it’s so well funded. That funding, plus a weak education system and a gullible public, has led to a very successful misinformation campaign for the oxymoronically named “Creation Science” lobby. Click on the links at left to learn more about this insidious attack on science, and in some cases, on religious freedom in society.
Matt, my dear, these 2 sites also start from a preconceived idea and then they provide you with evidence to support that claim. In fact, we cannot really talk about “facts” here, but about interpretations of those facts because, believe it or not, both evolutionists and creationists deal with the same hard evidence, they just interpret it differently. They both study the same documents, same artifacts, same skulls, same rocks, they just integrate all this information into a different worldview.
By the way, I happen to know personally one of the guys from Answers in Genesis, he is a renown professor that founded the very first speology institute in the world (the study of caves). He used to be an atheist in his younger age, but later (much later) he became a Christian. This guy barely has a home, he has spent most of his life traveling all over the world doing research, which I cannot label as “pseudo-science” as you hastily do. And he is but a minor guy that works for AiG. Don’t give in to pride and hastily label everything pseudo-science just because their interpretation of the same evidence does not fit your worldview.
How long does it take for a posted message to be approved by the moderator?
yesh, this is puccini, i guess my messages are beingfiltered and awaiting “moderation” – no wonder
@ Matt
Good morning, my man. I took a look at the websites you proposed, and it is exactly as I told you before. You are ready to accept only sources that support your view. Now let me tell you something that you will find hard to chew. Science has never been neutral. When you talk geology and archeology yes, there are facts, there are straight things that are unearthed, and those things are neutral. The moment they get into the scientist’s hands… well, that’s where the problem starts. An evolutionist and a creationist scientist will tell you a different story about the same object that they probably even digged together. It’s all based on their general view about the work that they are doing. There is no neutral science, but the interpretation of facts is always according to the worldview of the group of scientists doing the research, and that should be common knowledge by now. And let me point out a phrase written clearly in one of the websites you proposed:
http://www.talkorigins.org/ says this:
The primary reason for this archive’s existence is to provide mainstream scientific responses to the many frequently asked questions (FAQs) that appear in the talk.origins newsgroup and the frequently rebutted assertions of those advocating intelligent design or other creationist pseudosciences.
That’s exactly what you said about answersingenesis.org – “answersingenesis is another site which apparently starts from a conclusion and then looks for evidence to support it”. Well, that’s exactly what your site does! but it even goes forward and explains the word “mainstream”, or what you would call “independent”. Listen to this:
The Talk.Origins Archive is a collection of articles and essays that explore the creationism/evolution controversy from a mainstream scientific perspective. In other words, the authors of most of the articles in this archive accept the prevailing scientific view that the earth is ancient, that there was no global flood, and that evolution is responsible for the earth’s present biodiversity.
Isn’t that straight up biased or what? Let me introduce you to the same behavior in the next website you proposed:
http://www.creationtheory.org/
However, creationists have undoubtedly discounted this in their minds as yet another fraud, just as they dismiss virtually all of the geological, paleontological, and astrophysical research that shows that the Earth is billions of years old. The creationist movement is very powerful in America because it’s so well funded. That funding, plus a weak education system and a gullible public, has led to a very successful misinformation campaign for the oxymoronically named “Creation Science” lobby. Click on the links at left to learn more about this insidious attack on science, and in some cases, on religious freedom in society.
Matt, my dear, these 2 sites also start from a preconceived idea and then they provide you with evidence to support that claim. In fact, we cannot really talk about “facts” here, but about interpretations of those facts because, believe it or not, both evolutionists and creationists deal with the same hard evidence, they just interpret it differently. They both study the same documents, same artifacts, same skulls, same rocks, they just integrate all this information into a different worldview.
By the way, I happen to know personally one of the guys from Answers in Genesis, he is a renown professor that founded the very first speology institute in the world (the study of caves). He used to be an atheist in his younger age, but later (much later) he became a Christian. This guy barely has a home, he has spent most of his life traveling all over the world doing research, which I cannot label as “pseudo-science” as you hastily do. And he is but a minor guy that works for AiG. Don’t give in to pride and hastily label everything pseudo-science just because their interpretation of the same evidence does not fit your worldview.
why are my messages being blocked?
Is that how it goes? The moment someone posts something “inconvenient”, his/her post is “respectfully” awaiting moderation, not posted immediately?
I have not read all the comments so I do not know if anyone has talked about Hinduism. Hinduism allows you to disbelieve, it allows you infinite freedom. Hinduism is simply a way of thinking, a way of life. People have different opinions and you can have your own…no one is ex-communicated. You need not go to a temple but you are a Hindu.
Actually I can go on but its endless.
Your sheep’s picture is really very beautiful.
Have you ever read Wittgenstein’s sentence: “What you don’t know, you don’t talk about”?
As far as I know Scriptures, all the stuff you say is written nowhere. What about revising?
And if it were, may a human mistake in appreciation be ever a proof for God not existing?
Take lessons of logic, dear. Didn’t want to say you were stupid …
@ Matt
Good morning, my man. I took a look at the websites you proposed, and it is exactly as I told you before. You are ready to accept only sources that support your view. Now let me tell you something that you will find hard to chew. Science has never been neutral. When you talk geology and archeology yes, there are facts, there are straight things that are unearthed, and those things are neutral. The moment they get into the scientist’s hands… well, that’s where the problem starts. An evolutionist and a creationist scientist will tell you a different story about the same object that they probably even digged together. It’s all based on their general view about the work that they are doing. There is no neutral science, but the interpretation of facts is always according to the worldview of the group of scientists doing the research, and that should be common knowledge by now. And let me point out a phrase written clearly in one of the websites you proposed:
http://www.talkorigins.org/ says this:
The primary reason for this archive’s existence is to provide mainstream scientific responses to the many frequently asked questions (FAQs) that appear in the talk.origins newsgroup and the frequently rebutted assertions of those advocating intelligent design or other creationist pseudosciences.
That’s exactly what you said about answersingenesis.org – “answersingenesis is another site which apparently starts from a conclusion and then looks for evidence to support it”. Well, that’s exactly what your site does! but it even goes forward and explains the word “mainstream”, or what you would call “independent”. Listen to this:
The Talk.Origins Archive is a collection of articles and essays that explore the creationism/evolution controversy from a mainstream scientific perspective. In other words, the authors of most of the articles in this archive accept the prevailing scientific view that the earth is ancient, that there was no global flood, and that evolution is responsible for the earth’s present biodiversity.
Isn’t that straight up biased or what? Let me introduce you to the same behavior in the next website you proposed:
@ Matt – continuation
http://www.creationtheory.org/
However, creationists have undoubtedly discounted this in their minds as yet another fraud, just as they dismiss virtually all of the geological, paleontological, and astrophysical research that shows that the Earth is billions of years old. The creationist movement is very powerful in America because it’s so well funded. That funding, plus a weak education system and a gullible public, has led to a very successful misinformation campaign for the oxymoronically named “Creation Science” lobby. Click on the links at left to learn more about this insidious attack on science, and in some cases, on religious freedom in society.
Matt, my dear, these 2 sites also start from a preconceived idea and then they provide you with evidence to support that claim. In fact, we cannot really talk about “facts” here, but about interpretations of those facts because, believe it or not, both evolutionists and creationists deal with the same hard evidence, they just interpret it differently. They both study the same documents, same artifacts, same skulls, same rocks, they just integrate all this information into a different worldview.
By the way, I happen to know personally one of the guys from Answers in Genesis, he is a renown professor that founded the very first speology institute in the world (the study of caves). He used to be an atheist in his younger age, but later (much later) he became a Christian. This guy barely has a home, he has spent most of his life traveling all over the world doing research, which I cannot label as “pseudo-science” as you hastily do. And he is but a minor guy that works for AiG. Don’t give in to pride and hastily label everything pseudo-science just because their interpretation of the same evidence does not fit your worldview.
@ christian curious,
“If there was no Great Flood, why do we find fossils literally everywhere–including the tops of mountains? ”
If there WAS a “Great Flood”, why do we fnd fossils literally everywhere?
@ jesterballz
Do you know how fossils are formed?
Why do people take things so literally, when language is only capable of representing that which is otherwise perceived?
@dudeX
Basically. Dinosaurs (etc) = fossils eventually.
i haven’t got much time now, so i’ll make this short. and i am using over-simplified examples, but they do hold.
the original assumtion here that all good beings stop suffering the minute they see it isn’t really true… if anyone has seen a pampered child they’ll know what i mean. children who grow up with absolutely no suffering or correction of any kind have a warped view of reality, that the world exists for their benefit. i think God allows suffering simply for that reason, that it shapes and moulds us into what we are.
and God being all knowing does not circumvent free will… i know for a fact that if i keep a piece of chocolate cake in front of my kid brother, he’ll grab it. it can be agrued that he might decide not to, but if i were all knowing, im sure i’d take into consideration every factor that might influence his decision, and my absolute understanding of his brain to figure out what he’d do.
besides, a lot of these arguments are lopsided, in that they dont run through completely. for instance, if you allow that God is all knowing, you accept that you are not all knowing yourself, and so its entirely possible that God has a perfectly good reason for doing whatever He does. just because you can’t see or understand it, doesn’t mean it isn’t there. and there’s absolutely no reason you should see or understand it.
Sudhir,
You say that God is completely all knowing? Then why did he create a world in which millions of people suffer needless pain and die early painful deaths?
Gordon Bennett. Where to start… I’m going to pick on Christian Curious’s last post, just cos it’s the one at the end (nothing personal but if I went through this entire dialogue I could be here for years!).
Of course there was a “Great Flood”. Let me explain some things –
This planet is extremely old.
For a small portion of its existence (which to us is still a helluva long time) things have lived on this planet.
The planet has changed an awful lot – seas go up, seas go down, things explode, continents shift and (importantly) water shifts with them. Remember that this planet is more water than it is land.
With regards to human existence, you’ve got to remember that we have humble beginnings – we did not start off knowing how much “world” there was – “world” could have been one little valley in the mountains somewhere. So, when it inevitably floods, that’s:
a) “the end of the world” for whoever’s been living there, and
b) a “great flood”.
Now consider (as I said earlier) the vast amount of water around. Is it not at least plausible that several “great floods” were ending several societies’ “worlds” simultaneously? This is not “God”, it’s just the kind of place we live.
I’ve drifted off the point slightly, but basically I think what I’m getting at is that “the Great Flood” is by no means an isolated incident, and that we can find fossils on mountaintops because the planet is always changing and it’s perfectly possible that the seas really were that high at some point (or the mountains that low). Also, lifeforms manage to live in the most surprising places – the bottom of the sea, in salt lakes thought to be too toxic to support anything… bloody hell if I were to choose to “worship” anything (though I prefer “revere”), it would be Life, not God! Maybe it’s the same thing?
By the way, yes I agree that many other great civilisations do appear to have vanished almost without trace – the reasons for this are many but I tend to fall back on “pot luck” – it really is down to chance which great cities get destroyed by natural disasters, which documents get lost, ruined, altered or misinterpreted, and which memories of societies get bastardised by the ones that follow. Can’t really offer any other explanation at the moment – anyone else?!
[...] http://cynicpad.wordpress.com/2006/10/28/the-possibility-of-a-god [...]
[...] I stumbled upon The Possibility of a God last night and found it interesting reading for several reasons. [...]
Oops – ok so that wasn’t quite the last post – it would seem that I’d been typing alongside some others – Christian Curious I promise I’m not picking on you!
@ jesterballz
ok, i will make it as simple as possible… if you leave a dead animal out in the open, it will rot/decompose, maybe even torn into pieces and scattered everywhere if that animal would be in the wild, say, in a forest. In order to have a creature fossilized, that creature must be buried instantly in something that preserve its integrity and stops it from decomposing completely, and prevent it from being torn to pieces ans scattered by scavengers.
The funny thing is that we have fossilized fish, birds, reptiles, mammals, you name it, many of them almost intact, many even with features that distinguished them as belonging to a certain species (like the clear form of feathers or scales, which should otherwise rot and disappear). Start reading into this evidence, and wonder, isn’t this pointing to a catastrophic event that caused these creatures to be buried instantly? Take also into consideration the fact that these fossils appear in all regions of the world, all climates, everywhere.
As I said earlier in my latest answer to Matt, all evidence can be interpreted differently, because it has to fit the worldview of the scientist that does the interpretation. You know what I hate the most? The fact that scientists that support the Intelligent Design (aka Creation) are always belittled because they don’t fit in the “mainstream” view (see my comments on “mainstream” in the same answer to Matt). No matter how serious and really scientific their work is, the moment they step out of the “mainstream” yard, they are thrashed and labeled as “pseudo-scientists”, “fallacious” etc. So much for honesty…
@marionette,
“which documents get lost, ruined, altered or misinterpreted”
Well the Bible is halfway there!
@ jesterballz
You said this:
“You say that God is completely all knowing? Then why did he create a world in which millions of people suffer needless pain and die early painful deaths?”
Someone said this before me, in this very thread, but I’ll say it again: Do not blame God for what man does. Man does not suffer because of God, man suffer because of man. I have experienced suffering myself, almost to the point of being suicidal, and for a while I blamed it on God, because I saw no reason in it at all. Now I can’t tell you about the experience of the other millions of people suffering throughout the world, but I can tell you my own experience. God has used pain for me to stop me from making some really bad decisions that would have ruined my life. It took me a while to understand that, but when I understood what that was, all I could do was to be grateful for my experiences. He did not CAUSE the pain, He ALLOWED the pain caused by other factors. He could very well just speak to me, have a nice 101 chat with me (figuratively speaking) and explain to me what was this all about, or He could simply let me follow my wrong direction. I see it now as a display of His awesome love for me, because He stopped me on my path and turned me around and save my life. my 3 cents
@ jesterballz
man, i promise i am not picking on you. It’s just that you challenge me to think, and i love a good challenge
you said this:
““which documents get lost, ruined, altered or misinterpreted”
Well the Bible is halfway there!”
But JB, you said it yourself that you did not read the Bible!!! How do you know that?
Are you the third year of College by any chance?
@ marionette
I love the dramatic sense you have when describing the ever changing earth
good work!
But I want to make a point though. See, mountains did not just pop up from the ground, continents did not move in a day. There must be a global catastrophic event that caused the huge amount of fossils that we have unearthed today.
Yes, life is amazing, and all I could do is revere the God that had this much creativity
@dudex,
Well I don’t need to have read the Bible to know that it was altered. I mean it was put together selectively over a long period of time and the authors did not compile it. Misinterpreted? Well obviously, since the Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, Unorthodox, Mormons etc can’t all be right.
@Irving,
Are you referring to me?
@dudex
Yeah it is a little difficult for you Christians to get your head around how millions of animals of millions of different species would all have lived and died in… How old do you think the earth is?
@ jesterballz
Man, i respect you and still believe that you are an honest man looking for answers honestly… Please do not make me change that opinion by expressing views that support ignorance. My definition of ignorance is “taking for granted views of one party, and completely ignoring the other party’s views. Thus you don’t have to make any choice yourself”. My suggestion is start reading the history that supports the Christian point of view as well, regarding how the Bible we have today came into being, and than compare these views. Do some real research, do not limit yourself to one point of view only. As a general rule, “mainstream” (see my comments on mainstream) view always discredits the Christians’ because that’s their job, right?
@ jesterballz
My opinion is that earth is relatively young. I do not agree with the “millions and billions of years” that appear in the evolution theory
@Hutch
Sorry I’m getting into this so late, but it’s your argument for a beginning and first actor of the universe via physics that has intrigued me the most. Also, no one has really addressed it. Anyway, correct me if I’m wrong about the following things; I’m hardly a physicist, but I do have a few questions.
First of all, I don’t think you can assume that if the universe has a cause, then that cause is God (especially not the Judeo-Christian God). It may very well have been fluctuating quantum particles or another universe (of course this begs the question of the beginning of such particles or universes, but read on)
Sub atomic particles fluctuate in and out measurable existence and at various points in time can be said not to exist. This means that at the subatomic level in the early universe, there very well could have been something created out of nothing. This is of course very uncertain, but theoretically, quantum particles could have fluctuated into existence from nothingness, creating the beginnings of the universe as we know it. With this in mind, the idea of the universe existing as the big band model predicts without the existence of a causer (something out of nothing) becomes much less absurd.
Also, other theories of the beginning of the universe exist within the big bang models that eliminate a causer as you describe it, such as superstring theory, (which is fairly complicated and I am not equipped to explain it, perhaps you know more) the theory of the multiverse in which there are an infinity of universes, and the bubble theory, in which our universe is born from another universe which is born from another universe and so on (but what created these universes? I don’t know, perhaps they came from an infinite universe)
So I’m not sure if everything that has a beginning really does need a cause (and as causes go, because of the uncertainty principle the idea of cause as we know it might not even be correct) and I’m even less certain that the universe had a beginning scientifically speaking. Indeed, it must have started somewhere, but its beginnings could have been much less simple than you describe. It could have evolved/originated/caused by/created et cetera from an infinite something or other (universe, particles, strings, universal plasmic goo) that isn’t God.
Secondly, in regards to the philosophical argument of infinity, we traverse the infinite everyday. If we didn’t, motion would be impossible. As Zeno’s paradoxical argument goes “There is no motion, because that which is moved must arrive at the middle before it arrives at the end, and so on ad infinitum.” (see http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s3-07/3-07.htm) In other words, the distance between two objects can be divided in half infinitely. Subsequently, for one object to reach the other, said object must traverse each of these infinite halves, never quite getting to its destination. And yet motion remains possible; we walk the earth and as objects in motion, we reach our destinations, traversing such infinite halves. So there are an infinite number of moments between today and tomorrow, but tomorrow will still come (or maybe Zeno is right and it is just the illusion of tomorrow). So there could have been an infinite number of moments between the beginning of the universe and now; indeed there are an infinite amount of moments between the beginning of the universe and now—even if the beginning of the universe was yesterday—and yet here we are.
prost
First of all, I want to apologize about my English.
Indeed, God overpasses human reason, so reasoning is unable refuse God existence (and, to be even-tempered, also unable to prove it).
However, in my opinion, your argument flaws in point 4.: the possibility of suffering is inherent to human imperfection. My explanation is that suffering is only part of the game, needed to force human beings to make moral decisions and become more perfect: as God is.
I hope you will experience God, instead of trying to logically prove or refuse God existence, in the same way you can experience beauty, truth, goodness and love.
etaulave,
Not helping! I don’t say: “I hope you realise God doesn’t exist, the same way you have realised that about Santa Claus”.
for further discussion, click above for Albert’s thread on the topic.
Also, jesterballz, I do believe that all logical proofs of God’s existence or non-existence fail somewhere alone the way, and there have been many. The omnipotence paradox is a classic argument against God’s omnipotence and is logically valid, but hardly carries any weight as a philosophical statement. See http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/Omnipotence_Paradox
Also, arguments like Anselm’s ontological proof for the existence of God have also been deemed irrelevent by modern logic. See http://stairs.umd.edu/236/anselm.html
For my ideas as to why your argument doesn’t work (and this is purely logical, so you don’t have to get fussy about religon) can been see at Albert’s thread http://fundamentalist.wordpress.com/2006/10/30/jesterballz-thread-point-by-point-rebuttals-and-partial-methodology-for-determining-truth/#comment-185
dudeX
Could you elaborate on your disagreement with evolutionary theory (if you agree with young earth theory, this not only goes against evolution, but it also goes against much of what we know about physics, cosmology, astronomy and geology)?
It seems to me that this isn’t really a philosophical issue to be disagreed or agreed with but an verifiable scientific theory. Of course, theories have been wrong in the past, that’s their nature, they are forever in question, but they have rarely been wrong in favor of the Christian position.
Jesterballz, here’s my critique: you’ve made a fundamental error in the deduction of your original argument. The following is why. After you have read and understood it, please make the changes I recommend and stop purporting to have proved God inexistent. There are logical arguments that prove God’s inexistence, but yours is not one of them. Even if we assume the premises are true, the conclusion simply does not follow as a logical necessity. One can perhaps inductively show its truth, but it is not deductively valid at all.
Here’s what I understand to be the basic structure of this argument in logical terms minus the symbolism:
A) There is an x such that (1)x is God and (2)x is all powerful and (3)x is all good.
B) For all y, (4)if y is all good, then y is opposed to suffering
C) For all y, (5)if y is all good and y is able to stop suffering immediately, then y will stop suffering immediately
D) (6)If there is an x such that x is God and x is all good, then x is opposed to suffering
E) (7)If there is an x such that x is God and x is all good and x is opposed to suffering and x is all powerful, then x is able to stop suffering immediately
F) (8)If there is an x such that x is God and x is all good and x is opposed to suffering and x is all powerful and x is able to stop suffering immediately, then x will stop suffering immediately
G) (9) it is not the case that x will stop suffering immediately (because suffering exists, as we know)
H) (10) Therefore it is not the case that there is an x such that x is God
Now Albert is right, there are several problems with the logical language, but let’s not address those now. I just want to address the basic logical structure.
Assuming (A) through (G) are true, it is still a fundamental fallacy to assume H. The most important arguments here are (F) and (G). I’ll try to simplify this as much as possible but I’m going to have to go into symbols a little bit.
For the sake of convenience, let’s symbolize (F) as
1) [Gx & Dx & Oxy & Px & Sxy] → Txy
The symbols mean:
Gx = x is God
Dx = x is all good
Oxy = x is opposed to y
Px = x is all powerful
Sxy = x is able to stop y immediately
Txy = x will stop y immediately
y = suffering
→ = if….then….
So in English, (1) reads ‘If there is an x such that x is God and all good and opposed to suffering and able to stop suffering immediately, then x will stop suffering immediately’
Ok, here’s a crash course on basic logic. This statement is of the form p→q which reads ‘if p then q’. It is a true statement as long as if p is true, the q is true. If q is false then p must also be false. So far, so good. If we add on (G) we’d symbolize it like this:
2) ~Txy
Through modus tolens, (~Txy is the q in the form ‘if p then q’ and if the q is false, which it is, symbolized by the ‘~’ in ~Txy, then the p , called the ‘antecedent’, is also false) we can correctly deduce:
3) ~[Gx & Dx & Oxy & Px & Sxy]
However, this brings us to the problem in the argument. The above statement (3) is false if and only if at least one of its conjuncts is false. That is, if Gx or Dx or Oxy or Px or Sxy is false. But we can’t determine which one it is. We certainly cannot say for sure, using your deduction, that ~Gx (‘it is not the case that there is an x such that x is God’, or ‘there is no God’) because it might be the case that there is a God but he is not all powerful or he is not all good or he is not opposed to suffering or he is not able to stop suffering or any combination of these possibilities.
So the conclusion is in fact that God does not posses an explicit combination of all the traits mentioned. He may have some of them, however. Some Christians would argue that he exists, but is not all powerful; he has given some power over to Satan and some over to man. Some Christians argue that he exists and is all powerful and is opposed to suffering but is not able to stop it because of the freewill he has given to humanity. What all Christians do agree on is that God exists and God is all good.
So what you could do is replace your (10) with ‘Therefore either God does not exist or God is not all powerful or God is not all good or God is not opposed to suffering or God is not able to stop suffering.’ That would make the argument valid. Anyway, I hope this is helpful. Your argument needs only a little modification and it will be deductively impenetrable (except from those pesky right wing conservatives who believe in faith above reason and all that nonsense
).
Prost,
Joseph
Joseph,
That is freaking obvious. Of course. Read the 2nd comment in the thread.
Jesterballz
Wrong. Did you even read the whole thing? You’ve neglected the conjuncts that are unessential to the Christianity/Muslim/Jewish God. The only conjunts that are essential to the integrety of the religions are only ‘God exists” and ‘God is all good’, the rest of the conjuncts in the antencedent can be false and the ‘essentials’ of the religion are still in place. Now I’m going to speak for Christianity alone because I know it best.
The only way for your argument to be valid is if you reword the conclusion the way I laid out for you:
‘Therefore either God does not exist or God is not all powerful or God is not all good or God is not opposed to suffering or God is not able to stop suffering.’
Given that, we know that only one of the above conditions in the conclusion have to be true for the conclusion to be true by the nature of the operator ‘or’.
Now the religious aspect. For various reasons in various interpretations of Christianity, Christians unilaterally affirm God’s existence and God’s goodness. However, in order to get around your argument, Christians affirm that either God is not all powerful, God is not opposed to suffering (and yes, for some Christians, genocide is necessary suffering) or can cannot stop suffering. None of these admissions are contrary to Christian doctrine and all have been adopted by various prominent parts of the church throughout the years.
What I am saying is that while you contend there are three essential aspects to these religions, there are two other premises in your argument that, if rendered false, will still allow the argument to be true, with the essentials still intact. In other words, your argument leaves room for all three of your essentials to be true.
@ Joseph
Your “infinite moments” post is most intriguing and thoughtful.
What if those infinite moments also exist outside our present reality or in another dimension simmultaneously with our own finite dimension trapped as it were in the obvious concept of time?
Just as the ancient belief that the earth was the center of the universe is incorrect, is it possible that to assume that our physical world is the only REALITY in and of itself might also be misguided? Evolution seems short-sighted in this respect.
The Bible teaches that this world indeed in not the only reality. Our world is an alternate universe of sorts operating in a temporary fashion and ultimately ending.
Why scientists are often threatened by the Bible and the person of God is beyond me? To take the Bible literally as true would seem to provide the most wonderous beginnings in the quest for scientific knowlegde such as the existence of alternate/parallel universes operating beyond the bounds of time.
To seek out the secrets of our Creator would seem to be the most lofty & logical purpose of science rather than using science as an excuse to ignore the possibility of God.
@Christians
Why did God decide to create a world in which 6 million Jews would be murdered? I thought he loved those guys.
@ChristianCurious
“To take the Bible literally as true would seem to provide the most wonderous beginnings in the quest for scientific knowlegde”
… ummm … Ye…
Christian Curious?
It is certainly true that our understanding of the world evolves over time and someday we may find out that evolution is short sighted and another theory may be put forth. Herin lies the fundatmental difference between Christianity and science. Science is much more accepting of a new or disproving ideas, in fact, that’s what science is all about. Testing the foundations, revising theories, debunking theories, coming up with new theories. Christianity on the other hand, is fairly adverse to progression and stands on maintianing its ideas rather than revising them as new information becomes apparent.
In this light, I think the aversion scientists have for Christians is fairly understandable. While scientists are willing to foster new ideas, Christians dogmatically opose them, even to the denial of the senses. (your reference aristotle’s theory of the cosmos is interesting, but keep in mind that it was the church who eventually upheld this idea against the advice of science) It is not so much that scientists are threatened by Christians as they feel like Christians are threatened by them and are therefore retaliatory and abrasive. Science is certaintly not trying to prove Christianity false (some scientists probably are, but on the whole, no) But it sometimes seems like there are many Christians trying to discredit science. There are aspects of science that are proven which Christians do not accept. How might you expect a scientist to respond to such a Christian for expecting the scientist to believe in something that remains un-proven when the Christian himself does not even acknowledge the proven?
I’m rambling now, and this is all subjective. Perhaps scientific theory is not any more objective than theology. However, your idea in the plausability in another dimension of reality that we can’t prove because of an ineficiency of knowledge is certainly valid. Aristotle certainly couldn’t image the things we known now. In another 2000+ years we may know things that today’s scientists couldn’t dream.
I agree with you essentially, but I don’t agree that scientists are hiding from God behind theory. I believe that most scientists are honestly searching for the truth and most Christians are honestly doing the same. This is the ultimate good for me: uncompromised search for truth. This means that, while I believe in God, if I come across the truth that God does not exist, I will grab ahold of it with all my might. Likewise, while I don’t believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis 1, if I come across the truth of it, I will not back down and I will not shy away.
@ Jesterballz
You’re the one who started this blog and your not even giving us the curtesy of a decent and thoughtout response. If you think we’re idiots at least tell us why, as I’ve done for you.
You people lend more creedance to Satan than Jesus ever did.
@ JB
Hatred of the Jewish people stems from the hatred of God, b/c they represent to the world the very possibility that God indeed exists. Their persecution throughout ancient and contemporary history is the radical secular atheist’s attempt to stamp out that possibility. Such historical intolerance and ignorance once again shows that suffering is caused by mankind.
“As for God, His way is perfect,” and man’s choice to do evil is equally countered by the choice to do good.
As to your other question: If God did create our world, the obvious scientific inquiry is to discover HOW He did it. Pursuit of scientific knowledge is not antithetical to a deeper understanding and appreciation of the Bible.
http://cynicpad.wordpress.com/2006/10/31/gotta-hate-those-stinking-christian/
New post!!
Brian,
Not really sure what you mean by that, but I think you’re looking for the word credence. If that’s what you’re saying then no, we don’t. Jesus affirmed the existence of Satan or the Devil or demons repeatedly in the New Testament. In fact, that’s the whole premise behind the Trinitarian Warfare Theodicy. That Satan exists and is the fundamental reason for the evil in the world, that there is an ongoing spiritual battle between God and the Devil. I’m not saying this is correct or that I even believe it, just trying to get people to extrapolate a little bit.
@ Joseph
Thanks for engaging me in a worthwhile discussion.
And you as well, Curious.
death is ordained and theres no escaping it. you could in your terms that which you argue against, well support death as an end to all suffering. but do you? when you fail to recognise death as your own saviour, your points diminish value. your afixiated to this realm of life ‘of others’, that your unable to see beyond this point.
things that you cannot see, your quick to label ‘does not exist.’
may God give you a response. bring you clarity. for there is no other to disprove what you say, but God himself.
Ameen
Yes, God and most of the comments above.
A Buddhist would say, ‘A thousand monks a thousand Gods.’ If we chose to believe or make real to ourselves a deity then we have created that deity, God, Goddess, Demon or what ever, it is not real but it’s effects certainly become so if we allow the belief to take over our rational senses. Sadly too many people shirk their responsibilitys to humanity in this way and refuse to grow up to this fact resulting in pointless conflicts.
from the rational emotive therapy viewpoint and abstract.. there is nothing called trust and belief.
a simple example as in making you blindfolded and me who is supposed to be person you trust and believe, asks you to fall on your back, assured that i am behind you to take care of you from any mishaps.
me being physically behind you there with all assurance will not help you in trusting me or deciding for a full free fall on your back.
just try this with god who is omnipresent and omnipotent. if exits have the ambulance ready before the free fall with your so called trust and faith,belief.
GOd with so many derivations if exists it exits within us.
ravi
here’s a puzzle for you all.
in the Book of Genesis, we are told that the serpent
more or less tempts adam and eve into defying God, resulting
in their expulsion from Eden to fend for themselves and breed children doomed to inbreed amongst themselves or breed with
the mysterious “sons of god” known as the nephilim (whoever they are!)
Why then, if the serpent is such a deceiver, are the israelites led out of Egypt by a Moses who wields a staff made IN THE IMAGE OF THE SERPENT? At one point in the narrative, Moses even turns his staff into a real serpent in a magic showdown with Pharoh’s priests.
Is “Jehovah” actually the serpent in disguise, rather than the God who created the heavens and the earth? What does this mean for the Book of Job narrative?
Spoooooky…
Discuss.
this is not a puzzle. it’s just an analogy how we(you)have been incoculated by our parents during our formtive years by these references and pointers posted by you and so many others. our parents and their parents ….. all victims like us.
now that’s a comment I’ll say amen to…
Interesting thoughts. What do you think?
I think it’s pretty natural for the staff to be turned into a serpent. More natural than turning it into say, an elephant or a tiger. It’s much more plausable to have a staff turn into a snake. I’m not sure it has any more significance other than the relatability of a staff to a serpent, but perhaps it does. I’m sure there’s some commentary written on the subject somewhere.
As far as the book of Job goes, yeah, maybe the serpent was tricking the people of Israel into believing he was God. Maybe the only omnipotent being in the world is a malevolent one. I’m not sure if that idea has any bearing in the rest of Christianity, but as we’re already in the realm of the spiritual, anything is possible.
could you explain what exactly is “realm of spiritual” is all about with reference to the so called puzzle posted ?
this puzzle as mentioned is absolutely bookish…any practical experiences?
the root cause for terrorism,warfare,chaotic conditions and the money spent on defence,polical mileage is all due to misled and giving way for being misled by the nomenclatures of god and religons.
um….
Jon is the book in which Satan talks God into torturing Job in order to test Job’s faith. It basically is saying that if you believe in God, God will make you miserable so that you can further prove your belief.
Signs and talismans were all important in ancient middle eastern religion. If that staff was in the image of a serpent, it is signifigant.
It certainly is relvent to Christianity, as the Bible is taken to be the literal word of God. I bring it up to perhaps demonstrate that to read the book literally brings up questions of continuity that those who take it as the literal word of God are far too willing to overlook for the sake of their faith.
Here’s another one. Jesus is buried at sunset on friday, and rises again on sunday morning. sunset friday to sunrise sunday is only 36 hours. How does 36 hours equal three days?
I guess it has to because all those prophecies in Isaiah specify three days as the amount of time in the tomb.
If anyone is interested i will post my Jesus’ Resurection Conspiracy Theory that posits an alternate interpretation of the Crucufuxion and Resurrection in which Jesus only appears to die on the cross, using the only the four gospels as evidence.
I meant we’re not discussing anything objective in this post and so, sure, we can say anything might happen. We’re not dealing just with reality, we’re dealing with ancient stories and spirituality. As far as I’m concerned, within that realm, outside the realm of objective reality, we can speculate that anything might happen, such as staffs turning into elephants rather than snakes.
what do you mean by practical experiences?
yes, thank you, I was trying to be funny and apparently failed miserably.
Yes, the book of Job is about God’s test of Job, but it is not saying that if you believe in God he will make you miserable. This book is actually very interesting because of the relationship between God and Satan.
I also was not saying that the book of Job is irrelevent to Christianity, I was saying the idea of Jehovah as the serpent is a point of trivial interest and not foundationshaking.
What do you mean by inconsistencies?
Friday, Saturday, Sunday. It’s not 72 hours, but it seems like three days to me.
I’m sorry, not inconsistencies, ‘but questions of continuity.’
Jesterballz,
You ask “Which part of thousands of children dying in Africa each day not needless?”
This is, I suspect, the crux of “the problem with suffering.” It’s a thorny problem, and one that the Church has been arguing about itself for many hundreds of years, so I doubt that even this Blog will resolve it once and for all
Anyway, here’s a fairly weak answer, but the best I can come up with at this time of night (23:02 local time here in the UK)
- I don’t believe in a God who thinks that this is good.
- I do believe in a God who thinks that the alternatives are worse.
- I don’t claim to understand what those alternatives would be, because I don’t have a simulation anything like big enough to model what would happen if there were enough restrictions on human behaviour to stop mass famine.
I’m not expecting you to change your views. Nor do I have a problem with you not believing in God.
I manage to be a Christian without feeling a need to believe that God is a vindictive old man in a white shirt who will automatically send you downstairs because you’ve backed the wrong team
However, you do appear to have characterised Christians as being wooly thinkers who leave their brains at the door when they check in to church, and appear completely closed to the idea that anyone can have both intellectual integrity and belief.
Actually, statistically, I agree with you in this. I find a huge number of people who profess to be Christian but have spent no time wrestling with any issue more serious than who will be the next member of [insert your own county here] Idol to be knocked out
A lot of Christians DO come out with complete rubbish when faced with hard questions…
… but please don’t make the mistake of assuming that just because some people in a certain group are stupid, it automatically means that all peopl in that group are stupid.
… nor the mistake that, just because something has been arrived at by faulty logic, doesn’t mean that is HAS to be wrong.
Regards,
Mark
alright i am suffering . I am happy, i am sucessfull, my ill fate, does this all apply to the fireworks of god or does these come under “the realm of spirituality” ?
we are the one who construct our lives or destruct ours which has the cascading effect.
if we complicate our lives we need god.
why dont we start undertstanding ourselves? our mind and body relationship. Our breath. so even if we complicate our lives, we will have a restore point.
Practical experiences as in : what has been the benefit of quoting theories and their out come in your(S) peorsonal lives.
what exactly is the differnce between a “holy war” and “war”.
all our scriptures have an indepth meaning which has been absolutley misused and conveniently changed for ulterior benefits.
the Bible is rife with inconstancies.
I could scarcely write them all down.
An inconsistency directly relevent to our discusion is that Job seems to say that Satan, who has been cast out from heaven, feels free to interupt Gods morning walk to challenge Him to a contest.
Paul writes volumes about Satans work on earth, while St. John writes in Revelations that Satan is bound in the pit, unable to escape until God looses him so that Armageddon may commence.
Well, which is it? Is Satan running about the earth tempting us all, or bound in the pit, unable to escape?
Each Gospel tells a different sequence of events and characters for the birth of Jesus story. Paul writes that Jesus is the only one ever resurected from the dead, but the Gospel of John says that Lazurus was ressurected as well. (By Jesus, I admit)
Paul writes that to die without Christ equals eternity in Hell. The Letter of John (different John, this one is perhaps Jesus’ half brother) states that Jesus spent his time dead by going to hell to preach to souls in torment that they might be saved. Now, Hell exists in eternity, outside the bounds of time, so that implies that Jesus preached to every soul that was ever in hell, just as his death supposedly satisfies Jehovah’s blood lust over every “sin” ever to be committed in corporeal time.
there is more and more of these inconsitencies in the bible, if one only reads it as a weird work of literature rather than the inspired word of God. How can a book that can’t even agree with itself be the “historically accurate” word of God?
irrespective of the fact be it bible,vedas,khoran,or other scriptures, the respective churches have conveniently made the native format of these scriptures obselete and redfined to their own convinence to hold the masses at stake by using these redefined scriptures as a blackmail for holding their supermacy.
cannot blame them. room has been given for exploitation. so get exploited. one cannot be exploited without consiously submitting to it.
and, as Columbo says, just one more thing.
If the isrealites followed the Serpent out of Egypt, it is completely signifigant in the context of the religion, as the exodus is a pinnacle moment in the story of the evolution of the Jewish people and monetheistic Judaism/ Christianity.
It would mean that the whole thing is a dupe, supported by statements from their own holy texts. They would be following the wrong guy. Or that God is messing with our heads. I would call that foundation shaking.
I don’t believe any of it really happened, myself. But beliefs need to be evaluated to be valid, and these are things that bothered me as i deconstructed the bible (in bible college, lol) for my own edification and understanding. I have a whole list somewhere.
What is algorithim for evaluating “belief”.?
probably the ones we use to make hacked software “believe” itself to be registered. lol
The answer for the disccusion is explicit in your comment. hacking is nothing but a focussed reverse engineering. So if we do the same reverse engineering on our scriputures and ourselves,we would arrive at a viable and a global perscpective.
what is being done right now is “black hat hacking”
we can undo the the same by “white hat hacking”. lol
actually, i’m just saying that beliefs that would inspire one to go on a holy crusade or strap on a bomb vest or sit in a cave and contemplate for one’s whole life or live in a tarpaper shack periodically hiking down to bomb people, or maybe annihilate the people who already live on the continent you want to occupy should be weighed against the liklihood of the events that inspire the belief actually having occured.
i don’t think that an “algortihim” is required to make these sorts of evaluations.
they call it “inductive study”- the weighing of statements in texts against other statements in the same texts to see if they correlate. the Bible just doesn’t. Finnegans wake holds up better.
ideaflashed, you have a very good mind indeed. I just don’t think such a mental operation is alogrithmic in nature. I really wish it were, tho…
it would make deprogramming all the death cultists in the world that much easier.
blissamerica
i have and still reverse engineering myself.
Algorithims need not be assocaited with science or cryptography.
it is a team work deprogramming the death cultist.
every hack has a patch. and every software or hardware has weak loophole for penetration.
how we use these weakneses for the benifit to sustain peace within ourselves and mankind is the process model to be defined.
ideaflashed,
I do know exactly what you mean. the problem is that most of the robots on this rock are dreadfully in need of an “operating system upgrade” before the “algorithms” i’ve applied to my own process of reverse engineering could even begin to run correctly…
why dont you start a sequel topic to this discussion by posting your algorithim. I am sure a team formation would happen.
We can discuss and implement a viable upgrade path beta testing on ourselves and publish/seed it.
it is a diffucult task, tranformation is not going to be instant but surely not impossible.
we can optimize the technology and prudence for this evolution. Change is a stable factor.
Dear Sir – I apreciate your logical way of looking at things however I find one fault in your reasoning. Not all good beings are opposed to suffering and will stop if they have the power to. Often times people will suffer for the greater good. Martin Luther had a choice – to recant his doctrines or to suffer being burned at the stake. Now, Martin Luther could have stopped his suffering very easily had he recanted but he didn’t. William Wallace could have very easily stopped his suffering at any time. However he choose not to. Not every one who is good will avoid suffering if they can.
I myself am a devout Christian and believe what I believe is perfectly reasonable. However, my argumentation skills are, shall we say, not up to par in the field of apologetics. Thankfully, though, I am not alone and can turn to those more wise than myself so here is what I propose.
An excellent and well-known book in the area of apologetics is Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis. Now I know it is a time commitment to read through but I can at least offer it to you free of monetary cost (i.e., if supplied with an address I would be happy to send a copy your way).
If that sounds like a proposition you would be interested in just let me know (longt1@central.edu)and I would even be willing to follow with a (hopefully) good and respectful dialogue.
At any rate, the choice is your’s.
Juz imagine this story.
Once upon a time, there was a factory which produced a sophisticated tool that can fix anything. This factory was located in a very secret place, which anyone didn’t know. The factory is owned by a man who is veeery rich and he wants to make the world a better place.
So he created these sophisticated tools, and he gives these tools free for everyone. He placed some big box contained these tools (and its manual book, because it’s very sophisticated, so people will need the manuals) in every place, so everyone can just pick the tool and use it. He wrote “Free All-fix Tool for Everyone by JC Factory”.
Some of the people -because of their experience of being cheated- don’t believe the tool, and they didn’t take it.
Some of the people -being so greedy- take the tools so many.
Some of the people, juz wanna try this tool, take one of them.
Some of the people, who knows the owner, take the tools delightedly.
And time passes by. The factory is still unseen, but most of the people have seen the product of the factory.
Some of the people who didn’t believe the tools changed their mind. They try the tool.
Some of the users, who don’t read the manuals carefully,use the tool wrongly, and they break it, they can’t use the tool anymore, so they just throw it away.
Some of the users, who read the manuals carefully, make a good use of the tools. Do they have problems in using the tools? Of course, but, everytime they read the manuals again, thay find the answer of their problem.
Some of the greedy people, who took so many tools, become confused because they want to use the tools altogether, but they can’t, the tools are broken if they used altogether. Some of them even sell the broken tools they took, and changed the name of the tools with their name.
And a lot more of different experience of using the tools.
Many debates come up, arguing the exsistence of the factory which produces the tool. Some of the people, who know the owner well, said that the factory is exist, and they told people the goodness of the owner. But some of the people who don’t believe said, they can’t believe the owner. Because : (1) They can’t see him and(2)Some people still suffered thogh they use the tools. It means the tools are really useless.
And the group of people who knows the owner well can’t answer the first argument, because it’s the owner’s will that he can’t be seen. Maybe sometimes he shows himself to a person, at his will, of course.
For the second argument, they (those who know the owner) answered, maybe people don’t read the manuals well, so they can’t make a good use of the tool. Or they’re being so greedy, so they break the tools.
But the unbelievers juz said, we can’t believe the manuals because the owner is unbelieveable, and so do the manuals.
The debate will be never end. But one thing for sure, the owner of the factory will keep producing those tools..it is up to the people, whether they want to believe and make a good use with the tool, or don’t believe and get nothing except endless debates.
Nice story, isn’t it? It is about God, world, and the people. The owner of the factory is God. He created the world, and gave people blessings (the tools) and commandments (the manuals). People can’t make a good use of the blessing unless they read and obey the manuals. Maybe you argue my statement by saying, you can see there are a lot of people who don’t believe in God but still very rich. I just can say, they are like the people in my story, who just use the tools, but don’t read the manuals (par 10).
Then, the suffering thingy. Why did God create the world with these suffering? Why didn’t He create a peaceeeeeefullll world? (as in heaven) From the start, God wanted humans to grow ’spiritually’, the placement of the tree in the midst of the garden is the evidence. He can created the Garden of Eden without that tree, rite? But He did create the tree, to test humans. The same like this world’s suffering. Why does He put suffering in this world? To test their believe, their love to God, maybe He even wants to test YOU, yeah, you. Your love to others, your compassion, that’s why He created suffering. But..BUT..God doesn’t make suffering without end, for He will make a way.
I have suffered a bad illness 10 years ago, it is started when I was born. It is caused by er.. i don’t know what the scientific name for that illness, but it is caused by uncompleted parts of my body. So I have a little hole near my right ear, and it often bleed. It was painful. For acknowledgement, I was born in a Christian family, so reading Bible is my daily life. When I was 8 years old, I read a verse from my Bible that speaks a lot in my heart. It is said, “No temptation is overtaken you except such in common to man; but God is faithful. Who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make a way to escape, that you maybe able to bear it.” And I believe that verse, I believe that God is responsible to my suffering, but He won’t juz leave me alone with this suffering, He will help me to face this suffering. And the story goes, the next year, I became healthy. The hole was closed. The doctor couldn’t say a thing. He was as surprised as I was (haha). I believe that was a miracle. Science can’t explain miracle. Science can’t explain God.
So..what will you choose? Will you take the tools that can fix anything in your life?
or..make this debate longer? Erm..for a suggestion, to those who don’t believe God, why don’t you try to read Bible? Maybe The Owner will show Himself to you. As He did in my life. Are you brave enough to try?
God Bless You all.
Let me approach this topic from a different point of view. All the semitic religions with their prophet, pope and PROs has taught the masses that God is something like a saviour of mankind, leave other creatures alone. They have also taught the disciples to enjoy plundering the nature, as the nature is made for them.
An anecdote from Zen. A Zen sanyasi was meditating near the river once. Then a man came running to him and waked him up from his trance and asked him to show the God. The sage stared at him for a while and asked, “You should desire God better than anything else”. He agreed. Without uttering a word, the healthy sage dragged him to the river and dipped him in the water for long and took him out before losing sense. While the man was struggling for breath, keeping his mouth wide open and stretching his arms, sage asked him, “what did you desire?” The sage smiled at him hearing his reply that he wanted to breath. He said, “then you forgot God and wanted something else”.
Again, in the Semitic religions, the God is almighty, omnipotent and omnipresent, even powerful to salvage the believer of all his follies, a counter for one to approach the priest for salvation after killing and robbing off his neighbours property. See the religious beheadings in the name of prophet.
Hinduism is not a semitic one, and there is no option for exclusion and salvation. It has no prophets. In his famous speech at Chicago representing Hinduism, Swami Vivekananda told that he was proud to declare that he finds no word to translate ‘exclusion’ in Sanskrit, his mother tongue of Indian thoughts, and perhaps the world’s oldest language. Analyse the centuries old external attacks from Christianity and Islam to destroy it and look how it could overcome all these; the secularism within itself long before the west invented it.
“Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people”, declared Karl Marx. And secularism, in Marx’s views was a system completely ditching religion like a contagious disease.
Though the Americans and Europeans claim that they are secular, they never hesitate to take oath of office swearing upon Bible. America is a nations ruled by Bible which teaches one never to eye upon others assets and the reality is that vehicles carrying salary of employees never reaches destination unless accompanied by army up in arms.
While both the Christianity (Pope) and Islam never allow secularism and democracy within, they shoot up their hands when its violated elsewhere in the world. I would like to argue that if the west wants a world free of religions and its gods and goddesses, it has to stick on to Secularism.
Let them learn from India where the President of the nation is a Muslim, Prime Minister, a Sikh and the Kingmaker Sonia, a Catholic of Italian origin. Remember in the national population 80per cent are Hindus.
Salvation itself does not need to exist nor does it really exist. Most religions view God and/or his prophets as saviors of men. But what is there to save? Our world is perectly the balance of two things good and evil. It is a premise that there is no such thing as absolute good nor absolute evil as both are subjective to points of view. There is no need to seek heaven nor fear hell. Our world far outweighs all the benefits of heaven and the pains of hell, it is paradise in harmony. Being “Saved” is just an egoistic behavior of humans. Heaven isnt worth aiming for because it is pure good and no evil; as there is no absolute good not everyone may benefit, nor would it be worth benefitting from. Without evil heaven is the most boring place where you are kept in eternal bliss; without the knowledge of pain or the existence of it, one cannot enjoy bliss. Hell is actually a better place to go to, arguing comedically. Look at it this way the burning pain of hell will turn to pleasure in no more than 100yrs or so, that’s enough time for anyone to get used to pain and turn to machoists. Plus since there is fear, there is courage, things like courage and hope obviously cannot exist in heaven because they lack their counterparts. Many will agree that pain is in fact a stronger feeling than pleasure and gives us the sense that we are alive. Salvation is false and unrequired and heaven is boredom for eternity. It’s either earth or hell; the existence of hell is questionable so I’ll go with earth.
blissamerica
Rev 1:10 has John saying that he came to be in the Lords day. IF you knew when that was then you would know the time line involved in Satan being cast out of heaven. IF you know when that was you would know that it is not inconsistant with the statement from Job that Satan was talking with God and has his attention on Job.
In an earlier post I stated the origin of Hell. If Hell was so bad, why did Jesus as you say go there in the book of Acts 2:29-32? If you understood that you would realise that your final paragraphs about Jesus preaching to the dead and satifiying the blood lust of God are as ridiculous as you meant them to be and completely contrary to Bible teaching.
have a nice day, I don’t want to fight but that was terribly inaccurate.
well, blood sacrifice was a big part of the Judaic religion at that point in time. people had to offer a blood animal sacrifice at the temple to be absolved from sin. according to the story my various translations of the bible tell, Jesus was intended to be a replacement for those blood sacrifices. I would call a god that demands blood sacrifices a god with a blood lust.
i won’t even get into the hill consisting of ethiopian foreskins from the old testement.
i got my other bible quote a bit wrong. haven’t read the whole thing in a few years, lol. it’s in first peter, not first john. chapter 3:18-20 and it quite clearly states that Jesus went to hell to preach to the spirits in prison! i believe that this was also stated in the original Nicean creed, but was removed sometime in the 1800’s by the nascent methodist movement.
as for the lord’s day, that quite simply means that the vison was recieved on a sunday. early christians called sunday “the lords day”, as jesus was supposedly resurected on that day.
acts 2:29-32 is about king david, ok?
so my thoughts are not so ridiculous, no? it’s really is in the bible and you say it’s ridiculous because it makes no sense, which is my point entirely!
perhaps you should read the whole book and maybe brush up on the history of your religion’s evolving (devolving?) beliefs.
since we’re being super hyper accurate, taht hill was made up of PHILISTINE foreskins. they circumcised all the dead bodies and made a big ol’ hill of them. nice, huh?
while we’re at it…
GIVE CANAAN LAND BACK TO THE CANAANITES!!!!!!!!!
I think you have a very shallow ideology of God. I think you should expand your knowledge and understanding of the One Great Power. OGP is more than just a “God” of a particular religion. Some of the religions are right about what He is, however they neglect to recognize that God is forever expanding and evolving and perfecting HimSelf. Meaning, OGP is also growing and changing as humans do.
why do you think dogmatic thinking drive’s me so batty?
don’t assume that because i’ve spent half a lifetime deconstructing religion that i don’t believe in “God”.
It’s foolish to even try to make any definitions. Even the words “God”, “Goddess”, “He” or “She” are too much psychological construction for the way i experience life and the intelligence inherent in the universe.
http://www.shoutwire.com/viewstory/36882/Gotta_Hate_Those_Stinking_Christian_
new post!
lets take it step by step.
martin luther king did not suffer(suffreing is an absolute myth) it is just the cause and effect which he was aware of. he wanted something Ideal,for that matter anyone who had an ideal and wanted to impelement them were/are foolish including jesus christ.
We can not have an idealistic model of our ideals.
we need to accomadate practicalites and have a foresight about the consequenses the implications it would have before succumbing to be called as a martyr.
there is no point in posting theories and qoutes from scriptures, without understanding why it has been quoted (in the scriptures) and why should it be posted.
God as ” bliss america” has mentioned is acceptable and worth pondering over by people who are confused about their existence.
Dearest Bliss
At 1 Peter 3:20 the spirits in prison are described as having once been disobedient when he patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days. Peter refers to them as angels that sinned. 2 Pet 2:4,5 Jude 6 says The angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.
That angels did forsake their proper dwelling place prior to the flood of Noah’s Genesis 6:2
So these spirit sons of God or angels had the power to materialize in human form, this is evident from the fact that faithful angels did so to communicate messages to men on earth. Gen18:1
However, when numerous angels of their own volition left their proper place and assigned service in the heavens to have fleshly relations, they were doing something contrary to God’s law.
They became guilty of perversion, as indicated by Jude’s comparing the sin of these angels to the sexual perversion of which the inhabitants of Sodom, Gomorrah and surrounding cities were guilty.—Jude 7.
Now, when Jesus was preaching to the spirits in prison, 1 Pet3:18,19 Peter after pointing out that Christ had been made alive in the spirit, says “In this state (that is, Jesus state as a spirit person) also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison.” This would place Jesus preaching to them after his resurrection to spirit life. And Peter’s use of the past tense “preached” suggests that such preaching was done prior to the writing of his first letter about the year 62-64, still awake?
The New English Bible says this: 1 Peter 3:18, 19 “In the body he was put to death; in the spirit he was brought to life. And in the spirit he went and made his proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.” In connection with this you must remember that on Passover night, before his betrayal and arrest Jesus said to his apostles John 14:30 “The ruler of the world is coming.(Satan) And he has no hold on me.” he then said in 16:8 “And when that one (God’s spirit) arrives he will give the world convincing evidence concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment. he then says in vs 11 “then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.”
On this basis, the resurrected Jesus Christ could proclaim to the angels concerning the now fully justified judgment against the imprisoned spirits. That was all he could do to those imprisoned spirits, put simply, make a proclamation to them concerning judgment.
And concerning Acts…
King Hezekiah, when on the verge of death, said: “In the midst of my days I will go into the gates of Sheol.” Isa 38:10
Hades/Sheol refers to the common grave of mankind, a place rather than a condition, Jesus entered within “the gates of Hades” when buried by Joseph of Arimathea. On Pentecost of 33 you would agree, Peter said of Christ: “Neither was he forsaken in Hades/Hell nor did his flesh see corruption. This JESUS God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses.” Ac 2:25-27, 29-32 Although “the gates of Hades” as quoted in Mt 16:18 were still holding David within their grasp in Peter’s day Acts2:29, they had swung open for Christ Jesus when his Father resurrected him out of there.
Now I say to you Acts 2:38 Free your mind and the rest will follow. I shall not write any more because this isn’t the proper place for such things. You will know the truth and the truth shall set you free
Well I can tell you with certainty that Muslims don’t believe in the God you described.
ster,
well, at leat you’ve done the reading. the only reason i continued posting this to thread is that some bible believeing blogger told me that the arcana i posted from the bible (albeit to make a point diametrically opposed to your POV) were events that were supposedly not in the bible. so thank you for confirming i wasn’t making this stuff up.
i commend you on being very studied. as for the truth setting me free, it did. the truth st me free from the “Jesus Fan Club” ie-Christianity.
It’s true, there are a hell of a lot (no pun intended) of inconsistencies in the Bible. However, Christians do not ignore these all together, these inconsistencies have been brought up again and again. I think this questions the divine authority of the Bible manifestly and I of course do not believe a literal interpretation is helpful at all. Context context context!
However, there are lots of comentaries on the Bible that are very helpful in illuminating at least how Christianity as a faith deals with these inconsistencies if not correcting them altogether. Martin Luther and John Calvin both have very good commentaries that expound and explain every verse in the Bible, what it means within the context of Christianity and how problems can be resolved. Also keep in mind that these men were writing to a Church they thought had lost the true meaning of the Bible through dogmatism and so they deal with problems in the Bible as practically and logically as possible.
I’d just like to know, from the people who gave there opinions on this subject; have you even read the bible? I mean read it fully from first to end. Cause if so, you would realize that in the bible it states that Jehovah or Jesus doesn’t rule the world, the wicked one does. Because we as people let him. If you take that into any context it would fill in a lot of loop holes and misconseptions on how “God allows suffering and death and what not.” And how in the end Jesus will return to reclaim his kingdom “Earth” And cast the wicked one out and for 1000 years. Because if you have read the bible as well, you would know that earth here now is our paradise, that when Jesus comes back the whole earth will be are little heaven. And when the 1000 years is up and those who have proven themselves will enter the gates of heaven for all of eternity. I dunno, I just had to say my piece cause I hate when people say god allows suffering here on earth. But whatever.
joseph would you define “suffering” as per the bible and “why should there be suffering” and need someone to bail out.
Ster, I am laughing now at what you found in … THAT PART OF THE EARTH, if you believed in GOD and if you think GOD create us all the human, than the BIBLE should have records things happened in ASIAN, AFRICA and even better, the late found AMERICA and AUSTRALIA continents
. Then, we would know about INDIAN and ABORIGINAL people sooner rather than wait until a guy who want to prove that the Earth is round (which against the religiuous believed) to find new continents. Have you ever thought that the BIBLE have different editions? I do. That’s why I have always say, the BIBLE is a marketing book for GOD, and what happpens with books in demand? They have new edition to correct what was wrong or obsolete and refined itself.
Quoting what ster said below
”
Truegod
Heres the thing. You are casting people with the same brush. I’m a londoner, I live in Australia and I’m not young. When I was a teenager I spent years with people of different faiths asking them to explain me why they felt they were right I’ve been involved with all kinds of faiths searching for the truth. The fact is I rejected the whole thing when I was about 27. I thought it was all a load of bull, but I still believed in a God. After a few years I went to the British Museum and would look at the ancient artifacs there, I would compare the history of the Assyrians and Alexander the Great with what was written in 1st and 2nd Kings. I spent Read the book of Acts when I was in the Greek part of the museum, looking at the Gods of Athena, Artemis and alike and you know what, the Bible had living history to support everything that it ever had in detail. It has never ever been proved wrong. I’ve tried to prove it wrong myself you see, that’s why I know where YOU are coming from and that’s why I have the conviciton that I have. It doesn’t make me brain washed, I can tell you how the scribes behaved (the ones that copied the Bible) this is all available if you study Higher Criticism (the systematic attack on the Bible) They were extremely accurate and proud of there work it was thier life. You cannot know this until you study the Bible. I’m not even telling to read the book itself man, but if you go out of your way to try and disprove it, then you will open it and read for yourself.
you don’t offend me, you can’t I don’t have all the answers either, I believe the Bible does. Take care”
@joseph
As per the bible
what is the difference between “love” and “lust”?
“greed” and “wants”? “glutony” and “lyposuction”?
“pride” and “philanthropy” ? “mercy killing” and “abortion”.
“pro lifers murdering abortion doctors…HAHAHAHAHAHA….”
-bill hicks
probably this might seem quite technical. but a second reading of this post will help in demystifying certain myths. life/living is an art and Science.
Quantum non-locality is the key to both the transportation theory and quantum cryptography, and Professor Sandu Popescu, Hewlett-Packard’s professor of physics at the University of Bristol was part of the team that developed the idea of quantum privacy amplification and the E-bit, or unit of entanglement between two quantum particles.
In the teleportation experiments, an E-bit is consumed as a quantum particle in a particular state (called a Q-bit) which is entangled with another particle, creating the E-bit. This second particle is sent off, but keeps information about the current state of the first particle (hence `entanglement’). The first particle is then measured to determine its state and the data from this measurement is sent to the second particle as two bits. These two bits are correlated with the second particle, which falls into exactly the same complex state as the first one, and this is the transportation.
How this works in quantum cryptography is that the quantum particles are entangled and one of them is sent to the receiver. If it is intercepted, the act of interception changes the state of the particle being sent and that shows up on the original particles, so it is possible to find out that the particle was tampered with. It is then possible to use statistical techniques on the original particles and the received particles to see which ones are valid and which are not and to build up a truly secure key.
Prof Popescu said: “The trick is that it’s not the secret message but a random signal that will establish the secret key. Our idea of quantum privacy amplification is doing exactly this.”
Copyright: United Business Media International Ltd.
to Zach, and all people asking other people to read BIBLE in here.
If you ask a lawyer without quoting in law books, can he stand in the court and talk. Yes he can.
If you ask a Christian without quoting in Bible, Dreams or Stories, can he argue the existent of GOD, he may but his braind get numb really soon.
Prove me wrong if you can
Do I have to read the whole law book to go to court? No i dont, because if I know all the law, I would become a lawyer. HAve you ever read the whole law book to live in this world accordingly, no you dont. Do I need to read the whole BIBLE to talk to you about GOD? No I dont, because I may be converted to Christian, then there is no point to argue here. You may laugh and mock me that I dont dare to read the BIBLE. As I said in previous post, BIBLE is a marketing book and you would know the purpose or marketing in this world. It is just like some one told you a product is really good and you have to try it to see how good it is. Some found that product really good and besome the supporters/believers, some would laugh at those marketing strategy and become unbelievers
So, to those believe in GOD, stand up yourself and protect your belief without asking us the non believers to read your book
They say that God makes no mistakes, if this entity is real, then Its mistake was giving us free will. I believe in Karma, and that everything happens for a reason, but only by our own actions, like a chain reaction of sorts. HOwever, I’m glad that someone besides myself has thought of these issues. This is the first time that I’ve visited this particular blog and I have to admit that I like it. I don’t really like blogs and the only reason that I have one is for my journalism class, but its a great thing to read this one. Its actually about something interesting, not about materialistic topics. Ku-dos!
You should read The End Of Faith, its a good book that might interest you.
is it the “Karma” you quote is about the results of our actions in the prevoius birth?
If yes
my viewpoint is Karma starts and ends between our birth and death based on our actions,reactions and Discretion.there is no carryforwarding.
yes. a closed loop.
and perhaps the “light ay the end of the tunnel” death experience is a person begining the life they’ve just ended again.
struck the right chord….bliss
Religion is and always has been a load of old Bollocks.
Haha. Don’t read it, you’re not hurting my feelings. But to ask a ‘Christian’ who doesn’t quote the bible, dreams or whatever isn’t really asking a ‘Christian’ is it? You’re virtually taking the things we use to prove he is real and then making us explain. What if I took away the ‘proof’ you have that he is not real and told you to explain know? Wouldn’t be so easy no would it.
Replying TrueGod. A lawyer can stand and speak on the court without quoting his law book. BUT, what he will speak will be 100% surely BASED ON HIS LAW BOOK. He can’t stand and speak on the court something that is out of his law book, can he?
As well as us, christians. We surely can speak without quoting our Book, which is Bible. But, the things we speak, will be 100% based on our Book. So, if you don’t read our Book, how can you argue our opinion about the exsistence of God?
It is different to be just a spectator or someone who wants to argue. On the court, spectators do nothing. Just keep silent. Those who speak are lawyers, prosecutors, and judge. The prosecutor on the court can argue the lawyer because he himself HAS READ the LAWBOOK, just like the lawyer.
You said that you don’t have to read the lawbook to live on this earth. Yeah,that’s right, because you are a spectator, you don’t need to stand and speak on the court. But, if u want to stand and speak on the court and argue the lawyer, you have to read the law book.
First of all, there is no insult, no offend, just a discussion
To juz-imagine, That’s what I really meant, the lawyer can speak base on the law, but he doesn’t have to quote the law. Dont you think if the lawyer keep quoting the law, would it make the spectator understand more? Can you talk about GOD without quoting the BIBLE, to the non-religiuous people like us (spectators), it is like you are talking fairy tales
. If you keep asking us to read the book to prove the existent of GOD, what about I am sking you to be in our SHOES and talking about the non-existent of GOD. YOu, the beleivers, can talk about how great your GOD is base on what you read on that book, we, the non believers, can also talk and understand each other that GOD is not existent base on what we think. We, the non-believers, of course, dont have any book for you to read like the BIBLE, but for thousands of years, we are still here. We just dont like people keep crying how wonderful their GOD is in our face when we dont believe such a thing.
to Zach, if you think the book can prove the existent of your GOD, if , this is an example, no offend, I have the power to make all those book disappear, will your GOD still exist? Yes, in your heart, right? So the book is useless or what?
The more you guys quoting BIBLE, the more we believe you are talking fairy tales, then the more we believe GOD IS NOT EXIST, but only fairy tales. You asked us to read the BIBLE in order to discuss GOD existent? Do you think after reading it, we would understand GOD? In your dream! We may just think it like a history book and a fairy tale about someone combined.
So, in short, 2 lawyers cannot speak about criminal law when one use domestic and another use commercial law, we have to talk on the same language do we? Once you start quoting BIBLE, you start talking different language.
To be fair with you, I can give you any, that’s right, ANY tools that you think I have to prove that GOD does not exist in order for you to NOT USING BIBLE, DREAM-OF-GOD, PEOPLE MIRACLE STORIES. However, the thing(s) that you want from me, you should not have it either, so you and I are equal, then we can start discuss again, how does it sound?
Now, are back on Possibility of GOD?
Cjristian have Jesus, Muslim have Alah, Buddist have Budda (sorry for my lack of knowledges on these words if I spell wrong), and some Indian have OX, and I believe that I have read some where, some African tribes have the part down there as their GOD.
The question is? Are they ONE or are they different?
To the believers out there, if you know your GOD really well, then please tell me.
If you have studied your BOOK/BIBLE really well, then is there any line in there mention of other religiuous and their GOD? What does it say?
This is a chance that you can use the BOOK to enlighten me. Please dont use any other books as their are not official and base on individual opinions.
Jesterballz, in regards of your blog I’d like to ask to you why do you care about proving this point anyway? I know lots of people (including myself) like to brag about how their right and the rest are wrong but I see God, or the figure of God, a healthy icon.
Why wouldn’t he be when he teaches humans to be good? Because that is what he is trying to do.
Now, I understand that bad representations of religion have caused a lot of trouble, un-satisfactions and problems for individuals and countries all together. Some people are preaching blindly about this ‘God’ who will take them to a flawless Utopia. Some of the preaching’s ridiculous.
But.
But, if these people have the boundaries of divine rules said by their God, and most of these rules are good rules, why stop them from following it. Stuff like, don’t be selfish, don’t hurt, and look after your family as best as you can. If people didn’t have the laws of their religion, then they would have no boundaries at all. Religious people think that if they infringe these rules then they will be in eternal torment.
But.
If there is no God, then there are no rules. No spiritual journeys. No hobbies as some might have think of religion. No satisfaction for wonder of what’s ‘beyond’ life. Then why the hell don’t we be selfish.
You think the law of courts is going to keep them in order? Why should it, when they are going to die anyways, and there is no God to say if you did, then I’m going to punish you AFTER death. Death will then become an escape from their evil deeds. But what God says is that even after death there is no escape from their evil deeds.
So, concluding this, God isn’t such a bad guy after all. Simply the figure of a higher power that will make them pay strikes fear and keeps everyone in order. If this figure was eliminated then hooray, lets all go on a stabbing spree.
YAY NO HELL! YAY NO GOD TO TELL US WHAT TO DO!!
I am not saying this is the mental state of everybody religious. Not everyone will go on killing sprees cause there is no bigger guy saying don’t. Some will say ‘I will treat those how I want to be treated’ the rest… who knows… maybe they will go on killing sprees
Why do you want to disappoint millions of people of their faith?
P.S. I’m an Atheist. Does that make me interesting for sticking up for God?
Yes I am gay, So what? Do you have a problem with that?
You’re an Athiest? What do you want a pat on your back? How can you claim to be 100% sure that no higher power is at work?
You’re just as ignorant and as arrogant as all the god botherers!
That was to the Athiest further up, not the monkey above me…
That book has with stood hundreds of years of people trying to get rid of it and so forth. Trying to destroy it would be like trying to destroy one race; you might get far but you most likly wont come through. I’m being realistic here. It would take a world wide movement for this to happen. My whole point is you cant take away something that has standed the ultimate test of time like the bible and with that we get our information and I don’t feel bad for using the bible as a reference cause something that has lasted so long as has had such a profound effect on this world. To bad we don’t have ‘visual’ proof to shut alot of people up. Cause if we did, we wouldn’t be having this discussion right now. Even if the bible turns out not to be real (Oh watch out the christian is taking crazy)It has brought comfort and inspiration to countless people, me myself. It’s not just a book to prove a higher being is possible, it’s so much more than that.
Wow, that’s deep man. I love how it’s so “in” to be atheist these days. Fuck humility, fuck even considering the fact that we might not have all the answers into the nature of this existence. No sir, we’re all just so above the ruse that is religion. Gotta love the sheep. Personally until humanity ceases to undergo paradigm shifts every fucking generation (what’s true today, won’t be true tomorrow), I’ll take the socratic approach which is “we don’t no shit.”
http://www.cosmologystatement.org/
Someone has posted a posting which is not mine, using my ID. the fifth posting above this.
I think it is high time to track the IP on this blog.
If you have the guts why dont you post your views on an identity of yours.
ideaflashed,
could you clarify your questions on suffering and greed/wants, glutony/lyposuction, et cetera?
I am a christian, and I don’t agree that God is opposed to suffering. This doesn’t make Him not good; what makes Him “good” (and when I say that, I mean He is literally the meaning of good) is His opposition to evil.
The God I worship suffers every day with those people. The God I love suffers because of His love for us; can you imagine how much the evil in men’s hearts must hurt the creator of those hearts? And then, you might say, “well look at how the “evil” is hurting us. Is that love?” And I would say, if you believe in evil, and the fact that we commit it (subtly or grandly), it is love that we are still here; that we have not been discarded.
It is a good question, why would a good God allow suffering? I can’t really answer that. I will say that without suffering, there is no growth. And that unconditonal love brings upon itself suffering. I don’t know, just a thought.
look you guys, this problem has been argued back and fourth for hundreds of years it is the classic atheist response to a thiest’s faith. It’s called the problem of evil. The widely accepted definition of evil is “the pointless suffering of the innocent”
now, the problem that makes this argument a lost cause is because those arguing will never agree on either or both of these two points: The suffering is not pointless or those suffering are not innocent. The fact of the matter is there is human evil, i.e. murders and natural evil like tsunamis. Christians can go one way and argue its not pointless because they were not innocent because of original sin. But then you would be denying all evil in the world and saying its merely gods wrath(natural evil) of human evil (free will). But one thing is for sure, this argument will never get andwhere because it is viciously circulaR
thanks for letting me put in my two cents
UM how bout u all shut up! Believe is sumthn that u have or dnt have and that no1 can take it away from u or instill in u. Either u have it or u dnt. and the only way to get it or lose it is by urself.
X+h45+h5^7(t^4)-Sin46. Summon me an explanation and i shall follow u!!!
If God is a jealous god, and yet envy is one of the seven deadly sins…
Looks like that maths man should have perhaps taken some english courses…just because everyone else talks in “internet lingo” does not make it ok. If you’re going to do it, at least do it properly in 733t. pwn!
“That book has with stood hundreds of years of people trying to get rid of it and so forth.”
Well, one book had to. That was just the book that won. All those “holy wars”, I just don’t understand how they can be defended. From one point of view, yes, they were “spreading the word of god”. By killing everyone who opposed it? I’m sorry, but any god that is “good” and isn’t really into suffering shouldn’t support the massacring of people just because they believe something else. He gave us free will, thats what happens.
And if you take the other argument, “they just mistranslated the bible” or “they were just doing it for power”, that still doesn’t instill a sense of trust in following something the way I’m “supposed to”. I mean, how are we to know that the way we worship/pray is the right one?
That rant said and done, I also applaud those who follow religion. They are the ones most likely to help their communities, to try and make a better world. Better than those fucking atheist bastards who sit on their ass and complain. Oh, and by the way, I’m not religious at all. Spiritual, but not religious.
*double post!*
OMG I cant believe that this thread can go on and on..
God or no God is so simple….
You believe it or you don’t. No point debating over such a subject, as we all know, the final conclusion will be (Yes god exists because of so and so…) or (No god doesnt exist because of so and so…) and it will never end!! :p
Everything is about faith…like why would u drive a car if u have 1/1million chance to crash? Faith… How are scientific theories formed? deductions and faith. Some people just have more faith than others, like how some will never jump out of the plane with a parachute…but some will..this list can go on and on…basic foundation of all beliefs or non-beliefs…is Faith…Faith cannot be proven…nor can it be disputed…you can BELIEVE that there is a GOD, or you can BELIEVE that there is no GOD…its your different faith…Whatever faith leads to, truth or not…comes from one simple reason ….CHOICE…or Freewill…
Make your own choice…..no point proving or disproving the existance of god.
For me…my choice is simple…I believe in GOD because it is safer…even if there isnt one… I wont be at a lost…. as opposed to not believing in GOD, it might be too late if I die and there really is a GOD…
Make your choice today….
dont waste time proving or disproving GOD’s existence..life is short…play hard..
Andrew, you are such a pussy. You believe in God because you are afraid of what will happen if you dont?
You base your way of life on fear?
The church has got you my friend…
lol….yeah I am…and I dont care…just a choice
Well, its kinnda hard to say whats “good” and whats “bad”. And we all know that without any “bad” we dont understand what “good” is. Ok, children suffer tho they didnt do anything bad…but u know i suffer, and u suffer as well, and belive me, be4 ull die ull suffer some more…all who are born on earth suffer, the only diference is how long and in what way.
If something is all knowing and stuff …how can u try and expain it with our stupid lil brains? U dont even know what u ate for breakfast last wednesday, lol. I mean….u know what i mean.
Btw, free will doesnt mean, that we can control everything and everyone….for example, the guy who walked across the street and was hit by a bus. He chose to walk that road, he could of stayed on the other side but he didnt.
p.s. I dont belive blindly in God(i used to now im thinking bout it) and i dont go to church, cus it corrupted as hell. So im not good old christian altar boy, hehe. But i think your arguments are weak. I think this one is much better: Holy Mary showed herself to some people (as they say) and ofc they beliv ein god now, they dont find it hard to leave everything behind and folow god in every way, but i didnt c any miracles, i didnt c mary nor god…and i wont leave everything behind me, i dont have any proof like they do. Does this sounds to you like fair? Its like if teacher would show test to half of the class and they would know what to study and other wouldnt. So, is god really fair?
My Daughter still believes and has pure faith in Santa and the Easter Bunny… Does that make them exist?
Mmmmmmmmmm
Well dave, your daughter can change her choice of faith after being proven wrong…its her choice
These arguements are not new and are quite immature.
trying to rationalise the devine into ten points is absurd. You have just spat out what every schoolkid says to their RE teacher to try wind them up.
Read Quran. You will get a different perception of GOD…
If you the Bible thoroughly you will see that God give us free will he does not control us like robots. Which is also why the book of Revelation was written. All of the suffering, diseases, and warfare are said to come in this book of the Bible. In Christianity we believe that these are the times when second coming of Christ and the beginning of the end of the world will occur. All things must come to past, the troubles that the world experiences today are due to sin of mankind.
I have two points I’d like to make.
The first is to say that belief in God in itself is not really a bad thing if it’s teaching people to be nice to each other (oversimplifying hideously here but you get the idea) but it becomes a bad thing when bits of it are used out of context to support political regimes, outdated repressive concepts and sociopathic nutbars. If you believe that what you’re reading or have been taught is the Word of God, then surely re-interpreting it to fit your own agenda is nothing short of blasphemous?
Ok the second point (and I don’t know if this has already been mentioned) is that there’s some philosophical idea that says that you might as well believe in God – if He exists, you’ve been good for believing and will go to Paradise, and if He doesn’t then you’ve lost nothing! Which although flippant is a personal favourite because it gives you a second or two of stunned and outraged silence in which to make your escape…
Seriously though, existence is amazing; if you want to believe that there’s intelligent design behind it then fine, and if you want to believe that it just all happened then that’s fine too. Why does it matter if God exists? Clearly religion in its corrupt politically driven state is the real problem?
btw dudeX, thanks for the compliment
I can be a bit melodramatic at times, so just tell me to quit it if you think I’ve gone over the top! 
And jesterballz, yes the bible has suffered extensively from mistranslation and subsequent misinterpretation, but in order to be able to have a more rounded discussion/argument it is worth reading some of the texts you oppose just so you are better informed. There are some great stories in many ancient (religious) texts, even if you don’t actually believe they’re literal!
What different perception? after reading the Quran? That GOD is in fact the devil? kidding…juz bored
Well it’s hard to define god.. Every region on earth has its own religion. To say my god is better then yours, is kind of silly. To me, religion is hard to accept and deny. In your heart, you hope with all your might we can spend eternity in a heaven with no suffering after we die, almost something to look forward to on your death bed. This brings me to my next point.
Religion could have been “created” just so we can deal with our own existence and give us the strength to deal with loss of life (mother, farther, siblings) or how we deal with it when we know the end is near.
There are no clear cut answers, if you read the bible, you read words written down many, many years ago by people that is primitive to us today. With mental illness, and unknown drugs used back then it’s a far fetch to what you read.
I highly recommend Christianity to anyone though, simply for the family values they endorse.
I can say thank god I’m not a killer, I’m not a rapist, I’m not living off the streets, or in prison, or I can thank my parents for giving me values & morals.
There are many religions out there, and I guess you just got to stick with one you feel is right.
No disrespect to you salim, but I find the Muslim religion to be very dangerous. The slightest word or even a cartoon can set everyone off in that religion. IMO, nothing can be said about a religion that makes the followers go berserk, to the point of rioting in the streets, or harming/killing innocent life.
You really look at religions, it’ boils down to respect of life.
Floyd,
The Muslims going “berserk” was a result of circumstance. Islam is not intrinsicly violent. It is ridiculous to choose a religion on what the followers of that religion are like. Try choosing one that is PLAUSIBLE. Oh wait…
This is my first shout I guess it’s a good one to start with.
I’m just going to say that you are basing arguments on religion, not on god. If you want to argue religion, I suggest a degree in theology. People wrote religions, not god. So anything that is said in the bible or anywhere else, in my opinion, can be absolutely wrong. Even if you want to use religion as an argument it could go both ways. You say god is good and doesn’t want suffering? There are also accounts of god being vengeful so it works both ways.
My biggest argument for god’s existence is science. Energy cannot be created or destroyed right? How is there energy in the universe then? How is there matter? I believe in the big bang, but the big bang never explains how the matter and energy necessary for it got there to begin with. What’s your argument? “Well…ughhh…it’s just always been there.” Who put it there? Something cannot be made out of nothing. The simplest response would be a supreme being made it. Then of course where did this supreme being come from? Well he’s supreme, I can understand a supreme being having always existed a lot easier then matter or energy. Maybe god is energy? Maybe that’s why god allows for free will. Maybe he’s simply a catalyst.
I don’t have all the answers, but until you can tell me where energy and matter came from you can’t disprove god. All you can do is argue religion.
Lol, read my reply, I told you where you argument was wrong, AND I insulted you.
You see, I can be mean OR totally awesome.
ninjas!
My biggest argument for god’s existence is science. Energy cannot be created or destroyed right? How is there energy in the universe then? How is there matter? I believe in the big bang, but the big bang never explains how the matter and energy necessary for it got there to begin with. What’s your argument? “Well…ughhh…it’s just always been there.”
uhhm but if you say energy cannot be created nor destroyed how can god create it?
because science hasn,t find the origin or the reason for the big bang doesn,t mean they won,t its a matter of research and that takes time
but you think god is that energy
if so it is energy and you give it a different name.
energy can,t be created what about nuclear power?
or ist that just harnassing(?) energy
if gods is energy why should he being a sentient being?
does it also mean he is powerless?
energy is harnassed by man so we are using god then?
dont animals or at least mamals have free will?
i mean i have a cat and it decides for itself wether it wants to come or not when i call him
if god exists but religions just dont understand it right, why does god exist?
god exists because of religion,but also out of fear, religion is a powerstructure, with the wrath of god as its powertool and hell and heaven are a stearing wheel.
it can go both ways bad or good
it is just what the leaders, with the power of the word of god, are intending to do with that power
your minister tells you to love in the name of god or youll burn in hell you will love your ass off(which is fine by me)
if your minister tells you to kill and mame in the name of god and you,ll go to heaven, you,ll kill your ass off to get a piece of the pie.
where in this process is god implicated?
why also, if the god has given gift of free will, the religious leaders have allways tried to counter that.
god created man in his own image?
why,d he leave out his brain, morals, beauty?
or how can he be energy?
i don,t believe in god for the simple reason that everywhere i hear GoD i see Man.
i see too much of man in god, and to less of god in man.
i feel too much a god and to less a man (lol) joking offcourse.
god according to religion is a little child
he is petty, wants to be worshipped, doesn,t take no for an answer, doesn,t take responsibillity for its actions, only supports his bennefacters, is biased,
sounds like politicians and religious leaders to me
(In case you missed it, it was the first damn line of my response.)
You have weak arguments, and your call yourself an athiest. I love it! let’s argue some more, it is like reasoning with a 15 year old girl who just painted her nails black, I am waiting for you to shout “I HATE YOU” run upstairs and slam your door.
Hey you fucking bastard Atheis if you have guts , fight me , dont just say something stupid asshole!!! go to fucking hell !!!
Allaahu akbar Allahu akbar!!!!
aca… aca…
Peace man…
I am an agnostic myself but generally try to respect others’ religious beliefs. The arguments you have presented here are weak and illogical. You’ve attempted to create a structured logical proof out of general statements and assumptions that do not make sense (e.g. 4. and 5.: is it possible that the concept of temporal suffering on earth serves a greater moral purpose?). the “getting hit by a bus negates free will” idea? come on, that’s pathetic and nonsensical. Again, I am not a religous person but I am disappointed with the way you try to make your case. Outspoken atheists like yourself who cannot provide any practical arguments/opinions make all atheists and agnostics look ignorant and unintelligent.
“I’m just going to say that you are basing arguments on religion, not on god.”
Well then, what god are you referring to? With every religion there is a different god. And for each god, There is a different belief on how life was started.
You have a point there jesterballz. But with all due respect, over the centuries Islam is looked at today as it was when the 14th-century Christian emperor written the passage pope benedict quoted. Which shows a clear problem in the Islam teachings.
without dark there can’t be light, without suffering there couldn’t be happiness. that’s just how it works out. and who said god was all good? he’s a pretty wrathful guy… turned cities into salt, turned girls into salt, had his boy Gabriel dispense some holy justice all over the place. even now he condemns people to hell for not going to a building every sunday… and accordin to the big eared dude from the 700 club he’s killing liberal congressman. God voted Bush/Cheney 04. seriously though i do believe in god but not religion, they’re all just the cultures explanations of the world around them slightly exaggerated to make people more interested.
Consider this. You don’t have to be religious to beleive in God. I beleive God exists but I don’t read about him. I do beleive that God is all powerful, God is all knowing and God is all good. I don’t know why some people think God will intervene with our world. I just prefer to beleive that there is a God. Religious arguments can go on forever but I think people just need to ask themselves. I don’t need a good reason because who is anyone to judge me? I don’t have to prove myself to anyone why I beleive in God. I just do.
[...] My first post on this subject has been subject to quite a debate over the last few days and can be found here. One particular object of discussion that came up that I would like to address at first is about being an Atheist. Many people are critical of this position, and say it is impossible to be sure there is no God. I consider myself an Atheist, even though, of course, I am not 100 percent sure there is no God. But I am fairly convinced. Being a scientific kind of a guy, I try to consider all scientific evidence relating to this matter, and come to the conclusion that this evidence points to the reality that there is no God. And although I am not 100% sure, I am not 100% sure of anything. Even seeing an object, one must admit there is a millionth of a chance that that object does not in fact exist. No-one can be sure of anything; that is, until we come to faith.Faith is another object of discussion that has arisen as a result of my original post. A popular view among the Theists responding to me has been centred on this elusive concept, although there is little possibility of a logical method of dissolving it. But I will attempt that here. I will loosely define faith as being the belief in something without sufficient proof to be called fact. People have faith in many things, but none raise the kind of debate as religion does. Why? Because not only is the basis of faith in God flimsy to begin with, but also the very belief in God goes against exactly where science and modern thought are going. Of course science has disproved a lot of common beliefs before now, such as the flat Earth, the previous thoughts about physics and the origins of species etc, but none have ever been as sticky as religion.This is because religion is not just another common belief or thought. Religion is and has historically been a big part of people. Challenging religion = challenging people; challenging their very being and their identity. Accepting the thought that God does not exist, there is no life after death and there is no grand meaning to the whole thing, is not something easy to swallow. So I am asking Theists now; is faith enough? What sets your faith apart from the faith of another religion, when there is no evidence to support yours over the other? Consider a parent who has strong faith in his his/her God. If this parent teaches this religion as fact to their child, is this still a matter of faith? Shouldn’t this child come t their own true faith?This all said, a very big reason why people still believe in God has little to do with the people. Very powerful people do not want things to change. No matter how you look at faith and religion, you will see that, historically, whoever is at the helm of religion will wield the power.Religion = PowerFew people would have continued the Christian religion if the powerful institution of the church had not been upheld until now. These people, along with other powerful groups of people (namely the US government), have a vested interest in religion, as a means of controlling the people.Many more people would have subscribed to Darwin’s Theory of Natural Selection if there were not so many well funded people busy refuting it. And to those that believe that this Theory is not plausible, have a think about why the great majority of the scientific community accept it as fact, while the only sources one can find disputing this theory are highly biased or highly selective. If you think it is not sound, then have a think about why is it taught in schools as the sole (I am assuming) explanation for the origin of species? [...]
your argument is flawed:
lets assume that if there is a god then there is no suffering
so in case where there is a god, there is also an absence of suffering
however where there is no god, there is suffering
now consider the converse of the proposition:
if there is no suffering there is a god
this is not true since there may be other reasons for an absence of suffering
thus your argument for the absence of a god is not valid since your argument does not allow a god to exist by definition
it is because you are arguing for the absence of a god by assuming that god is an indicator of the absence of suffering and that is not correct, you have to use something as an indicator of god’s existence:
god exists if and only if there is no suffering
our suffering will end when we go home to god. we are on this earth as servants to god. not to undermind everything he teaches us. get a clue you will never compleatly understand somthing as great as god. have you ever thought about the devil. and the things he dose. mabey the suffering is his doing????
Just Read the Bible and you can find out for yourself if “God” exists. Just a suggestion.
I know I’ve read it on more than one occasion during my life, cover to cover. No objective proof in there anywhere of any sort of creator being worthy of worship.
Sorry, u lose. You’re key assumption is that goodness requires negation of suffering; in fact, some suffering is good, if it leads the sufferer to an enhanced state of goodness. You could argue that this is not what religious people mean when they say “good”, but really, you would have to explain ascetism as a pathway to enlightment (or any of the other paths of denial/punishment that lead to purity).
Nice try though.
Oh, and here’s a cookie.
well,, basically,, these are great, yet tired arguments,,
thing is i dont care if god exists or not, because,,
as stated in shadows earlier reply
god created everything,therefore god also created sin,, yadda yadda,,, so he creates sin then gets you to fry for all eternity for taking up the option,,,,,
the fucker!
so if he doesnt exist, great, its a sensible universe, and my ideas about religious idiots are correct,,,
if he does exist, he is making up the rules just to screw you and i will spit in his face if i ever get to meet him/her/it.
i know this isnt the most reasoned argument in the world,, but its heartfelt.
i reckon, ignore god, get on with your lives and dont fuck anyone else over.
if that chosen person got hit by that bus and those kids are starving in those nations that means one thing, god is calling them up to heaven.
if that person gets hit by that bus and those children are starving and dieing then god is calling them up to a better life, to rid them from starvation and poverty, everything happens for a reason. 9/11/01 for example god was giving us a chance to realize that america is not invincble and it is vulnerable. But why did everyone have to die then u ask? its not exactly like they died they just left earth for a better life.
thank you
God exists, How to prove god exists is to first ask yourself the question. How do I know what is right or what is wrong. Then. Why do I know this?
Christians, Pagans, Jews, Buddists etc.. have their definition of GOD with no proof and pure faith. Some believe God is all benificent some beleive God has a plan we don’t know yet. I would say they are all equally right and all equally wrong.
The first thing you should realise about God is God is whatever you want God to be. Therefore I believe God is All good and equally All bad. Reason being, free will is just that, we have the choice to do good or bad, God has chosen NOT to get involved. God has overcome the contraints of choosing between good and evil and just IS. Thats why God can say “I am what I am” with any other precondition.
i.e. Europeans(Caucasians) have a distinct nature of travelling far and wide and treating every human encounter as a reason to exploit and plunder. If they find what they see as weakness this is used as a just reason to plunder and exploit(the sheer arrogance is amazing). Now does this apply to every single European(Caucasian)? NO. of course not but it’s a definate strong characteristic found amongst that particular sub group. Is this free will or predestination? Or is it both? Other human sub groups do not organise themselves into large nation groups that span hundreds of square miles but instead keep themselves in relatively small groups with unique languages and more personal relationships. Is this a sign of weakness or lesser intelligence or does this decrease the chances of war, disease and famine. Is this good or bad? Does this promote happiness or a life of savagery? These are the questions that I find really tell you if God exists.
In the Bible it points out that Man is a reflection of God. We share the same charactersitics. I would surmise that the only difference is who has mastered their nature and who has not.
Someone wise once defined the human mind as bigger than the sum of its parts (I put these gems in to make you think). Indeed the one scientific question that should be easy for an evolutionist to answer but never can is… Why is a humans brains so large? Some scientists estimate we only use between 10 and 13 percent of it during our lifetime(reasearch that assertion and you will see what I mean, especially when other scientist will say no-one has measured the full potential of the human brain so therefore how can you measure 10 percent). Surely this is not an effect produced by something as ruthlessly efficent as evolution.
In summary I would say that most religionists are a victim of literalism and read ther ancient text in that manner letting the oh so unreliable phenomena of “faith” guide them through otherwise wholely made up or misunderstood ancient knowledge and wisdom.
In God we Trust
I am a follower of Christ. I call myself this rather than “Christian” for one because I don’t buy into religion, the bible isn’t a religion, it’s a guide. Too many people call themselves Christian without even trying to follow Christ, without being honest to themselves and to God. I believe strongly in the God whose existence this post intends to refute, and hope to shed a little light on this “possibility.” I love it when someone asks questions, especially the tough ones. When someone doesn’t believe an idea simply because they’re told it’s true, that is a trait more people could put into practice.
Free Will. I suppose this term should be defined before anyone uses it. It’s a simple yet complex concept. The simplicity of free will is this: do what you will. This means God cannot interfere, else he would infringe on his gift to us. Complexity lies in the way destiny intertwines with free will to dictate the availability of choices for the next person to choose. This “utterly useless and completely refutable” argument is more than just one choice affecting one outcome. For every choice there are immediate consequences, there are linked consequences, and there are unseen consequences. Yes, God will alleviate suffering wherever he can, but someone has to ask him to step in. What would be interference against free will becomes acting on someone else’s behalf.
Those starving children born into poverty are victims of the misuse of free will. Presidents, warmongers, apathetic individuals, and tyrannical kings have all contributed to make choices which eventually cause an innocent child to be born into a hopeless situation. Of course the newborn child did nothing to deserve her plight, just as a child born into an affluent family did nothing to deserve his riches. Because of the web of everyday choices, seemingly random events more likely can be traced to a series of prior events. So the event of a man hit by a bus is consequential rather than random (that’s not to say it was his fault).
God gave us free will, in my opinion a beautiful gift, which every single one of us chooses to misuse. God is perfect, so he would never take back his gift, or detract from its value. If God rained bread down from heaven to feed the hungry, swooped the man out from in front of that bus, stopped people from committing suicide, and kept serial killers from running loose all the time, we would have no choice but to believe in him. Worse yet, there would be no consequence for the world’s poor decision making.
Although your reasoning seems sound, your proof neglects to take the larger picture into account. This world is passing away, it is only meant to be temporary. We were given this imperfect world to learn from, to work out the kinks in our free will, and to separate the wheat from the chaff. God knows it will all be put right in the end. All the evil will receive their just reward, and all his children will be comforted. This life on earth is a quick blink compared to everlasting life. If one steps out of one’s mental cage, all of creation screams God’s existence. God’s waiting for you to see him, all you have to do is look to find him.
A simple response to “someone’s” argument:
If what you say were true, then a mass murderer could use the excuse that God was simply telling him “send these people to a better place.” There has to be more to it than that, or else the definition and consequences of murder would change drastically.
Jesterballz, I’m still waiting (going on 4 days now) for your response to this post (of which your previous post was here).
You said:
Let’s see you live up to your statement. (BTW, you would have made an open thread which commerters could defer to for all unrelated comments if you really were “welcome”).
If you are so sure that God doesn’t exist, then when His promise of the Day of Judgement is fulfilled, you will see that you were in manifest error.
Whilst in a few ways I agree with your argument here, not only are there gaps in your logic but this is basically the summary that all of my secondary school Relegious Studies class wrote, when were were about 15…
There is nothing new in these arguments, and the way u have done it does not make it new or interesting.
However the fact you recieved as many shouts as you did proves the point that not everyone did RS when they were young, so perhaps you are bringing this age old argument to a new audience who can now perhaps think about it all.
Peace!
Bro.
I cannot and will not believe that existence is a mere co-incidence and it happened through exploding planets and shit.
too many things on the this planet is designed to work with everything else.
God doesn’t interfere with our lives because we wanted it that way.
If God fixed all the problems, and nobody suffered, if God had to constantly change the events of time, to prevent the bus from hitting some random kid, it wouldnt be free will. maybe that bus drivers WANTS to nail the kid. If God interefered people would just start bitching because God never left them alone.
It’s a no win situation. Being that God is in all time frames at once, the past the present and the future he knows what effects each thing that has happened will have on the future.
I wouldn’t be surprised if God had thought about the viability of interefering with mankind, and he could see the outcome and didnt do it for what ever reason.
The next best thing to do is to let himself exist to those who want to believe in him (if i were God i wouldnt get involved in all the bullshit us humans get up to either)
So he exists. Just because you can’t see gravity doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Anyone is welcome to test God, just as they would test gravity. But if you jump off a building don’t expect gravity to let you down slowly. Likewise if you test God, don’t expect to find anything spectacular.
“I cannot and will not believe that existence is a mere co-incidence and it happened through exploding planets and shit.”
Thankyou for the wonderful assessment of Big Bang Theory.
“too many things on the this planet is designed to work with everything else.”
Which is actually how evolutionary theory predicts life to work. Organisms adapt to their ever changing environment in order to survive on a continuous basis – hence everything soon forms into an interwoven web of life (commonly referred to as the Food Chain/Web).
After reading “god ordained the 9/11″ & the “assuming by ice cream you mean heaven” crap. I cou;dn’t be arsed reading anymore.
Fact – Ice cream exists – does heaven? INO. All these religious sheep really should get a life. Believing in heaven because someone ‘wrote’ about it is utter nonsene.
If you believe in heaven & god then kill yourselves en-mass and see if heaven really does exist – and do the rest of us a massive favour.
Normal human beings like to enjoy planet Earth afterall that’s where most of us actually are !!
If you crave for heaven so much then PROVE your faith and kill yourselves , NO!! I bet you’re not so “religious” now are you!!
Then the normal people can flatten all your abhorant religious buildings and live in peace without innocent people being killed in the name of religion.
I spit on ALL your “gods” and remember I EXIST – god doesn’t. PERIOD.
Oh and if I offended anyone’s religion , whatsoever , then now you know how I feel whenever I see your churches / temples.
im sorry but how does this prove there is no god?? i personally am a christian, and what i choose to believe comes from me not some random person telling me that god doesnt exist with a lame attempt to prove it. as for the bus theory that person that “randomly” got ran over by a bus should have used his free will to look to see if there was anything coming before he crossed the road, so yes even that comes down to free will!
“Gosh that is one moral God you have there! I mean deliberately creating a universe that screws people over because of random events! I mean consider a comet that hurtles to earth and kills a thousand people. These people had no idea that it would come. It was a total fluke. But you can still say it’s not God’s fault! Genius.”-Jestaballz
I don’t know if this has been answered yet, (I’m only about a quarter way through reading all this) but it has to due with suffering, and a test of faith. Hypothetical question, If your in a burning building and a fireman comes in to save your life, will you either.
A) Hate and despise him.
or
B) Love and thank the person for saving you.
The suffering God puts us through is designed to make us stronger in our faith.
I challenge any non christian people here to just read part of the new testement,(the second part of the Bible) just read and think it over. Have an open mind. I would do the same for any type of material that you guys give me to read, just ask.
It’s just mankind’s nature to question everything we can’t comprehend.
We will never realize how large the universe is, and we will surely never understand how the first single cell organism arrived on this planet we call earth. It’s just to mind boggling to think we were once this little tiny spec of dust before time was time. So we have got to come up with our own explanations for our own existence. And blamo, a god was thought up to explain the unexplained.
Maybe it’s all much more simpler then we really think, maybe a few perfect series of events giving birth of life, a flicker of light hitting a pond in a certain angle causing fungus, that fungus grows bacteria and BANG the chain of life starts.
At the end of the day, we are all apart of the earth grown from the very first single cell organism.
Or hell, maybe we are all wrong, maybe aliens transported us here to see how our kind evolves..
These are the things that will never be answered, and thinking about it will just make it more frustrating till we come up with our own anwsers. Just be happy your alive today and live as if there is no tomorrow.
“So he exists. Just because you can’t see gravity doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.”
Why kind of argument is that supposed to be!!
Try picking up anything (an apple for example) then dropping it. Guess what – that proves graivity exists. Know , all religious people going of this “arugment” (that I NEVER made) you prove god exists or stop bleating on about.
chris jus seen your post, if you think that you could offend with that then you are very much mistaken infact i pity you that was so pathetic, maybe you could flatten all our buildings however they are after all just buildings the church is not the building it is the worshipping people so go ahead start your brilliant plan. the fact is that people will always believe what they want to believe. and as for the “religious sheep” thing i love sheep n if believing makes me a sheep then so be it! if you dont want to believe then fair enough I respect that, however others out there including me do and you should be man enough to respect that too!
Well brother, I respect your thinking on the subject of God, but suffering is a part of life and you can’t deny God just because of the suffering in the world. WHAT IS ILLOGICAL FOR MAN MAYBE LOGICAL FOR GOD, AND WHAT IS ILLOGICAL FOR GOD MAY APPEAR LOGICAL TO MAN. Peace.
There is this quote I heard, and I don’t recall who said it, but it does follow this same premise, “if god allows suffering, he cannot be good, and if he is powerless to stop it, he cannot be god”.
Muslims? Bring on the new Crusade and lets wipe them out once and for all.
Bunch of idiots!
Muslims?
Bunch of idiots!
Muslims?
The sooner the better!
Muslims?
You know you feel the same…
You should read some philosophy. There is a good book called philosophy: the basics and there is a good section on religion.
A popular arguement is, that by definition of god, he must exist. He exits in our mind, and so therefor by definition (all powerful) then he MUST exist in reality or he wouldn’t be as powerful. An example to help illustrate this is a pen. If is exists in our mind, it is not as powerful as in reality, for a pen in reality is less limited, it can write in reality whereas if it is trapped in our mind then it is limited and cannot do very much.
That is the most pathetic attempt at logic I have ever read. There is no logic here, just sad sack that has obviously never once opened the bible to see what it says and who just makes up his own version of God to easily knock it down.
GOD is not a straw man.
Man, not God, brought sin into this world and death by sin.
Jesus Christ WILL judge us ALL soon and our knees will bow and our tongues will confess that He is Lord of lords and King of kings.
@sarah “maybe you could flatten all our buildings however they are after all just buildings the church is not the building it is the worshipping people”
So why have churches/temples then? derrrr
are they not symbolic?
If they attempted to build a “building” for atheists how many religions would tolerate it? NONE
Now give and stick that up your pathetic god’s ass
the argument is incorrect simply because it assumes god is all good. god is all good and all bad because all came from him/her/it. i’m not saying my personal belief one way or another(for the existence of god) but i do know that to assume god is all good really negates half his purpose. without bad there would be no good so for god to be all good would already make him nonexistent. if you want to rework your “theory”, which by the way is hundreds of years old, do so with the knowledge that everything was born out of god, good and bad, and that doesn’t then make him evil. evil is just a human context.
chris, we have the buildings to meet and worship together. taking away my church building wouldnt make me not be able to believe or not be able to worship would it. i would imagine that most religions wouldnt care really if u wanted to build something for the atheists as we respect other peoples beliefs. which clearly you dont.but what would be the point of building somewhere for atheists to worship in?? the meaning of atheist is some1 who denies the existence of a god therefore atheists dont worship. ha
@sarah Who mentioned anything about a building for worship!!I think you’ll find I said a “building”.
As for others’ beliefs – I don’t care what people do in their own homes – the rest of us should not be bombarded with religion everywhere we go. If you can worship from home (afterall he’s supposedly everywhere) then why don’t you ! Why do we have to look at numerous eyesores that costs money whilst others are starving ! How selfish is that.
If you believe in a better place “heaven” and trust your faith so much then why are you still here ? Heaven sounds quite nice – so whuy not take all the other religious fanatics with you and leave the rest of the planet in peace. AMEN
Religion is the biggest cause of war known to man. PERIOD
What you didnt mention is how almost all of this is from the famous 13th century Philosopher Thomas Aquinas, he wrote this theory in an attempt to prove his religion was fruitful. He purposely did this so that he could later prove that god DOES exist! Which he actually does quite well. Sonds like one of those “I only read half the article” things.
Or if a person is crossing the road, and gets randomly hit by a bus. How does this in any way constitute free will?
It is the free will of the bus driver to hit this person and it is the free will of the person to be in the path of an oncoming bus.
If God is infinite then God cannot be defined, contained, or circumscribed. If God is infinite then God must be non-static – always becoming… It is folly to try to prove God’s existence with linear argument. Too much time is wasted arguing about minutia in a futile attempt to prove that which cannot be defined.
don’t you tell me
what my soul is,
and is
not
claiming the boundless
as yours to
define
to know the unknowable,
enclose the
divine
worship with delusion
only ours! is the way
call yourself a “believer”,
but only in
your
self
A popular argument against this one, is that “God gave us free will”. Well this argument is utterly useless and completely refutable. Consider those thousands of children who starve in developing nations. How could anyone justify this as free will? And if you believe that it is the fault of human beings, then explain to me how an all good being could justify an innocent child being born into this situation. Is it that child’s fault?
God has created balance, it is also fair to say this same scenario plays itself out in all aspects of life on this palnet. Some animals are born into better situations(more food sources,water,better temperatures)than others. But, the less fortunate animals still try to reproduce even though their offspring has little chance of survival.
Children are born into impovrished countries by the freewill of their parents. No one is forcing them to procreate. God does not control peolple(see: Adam And Eve) People make choices via free will and are left to deal with the consequeces of their actions.
chris, please tell me how you are bombarded by religion everywhere you go?? and as for killing myself which is what you implied i should do i value life and enjoy it and feel very fulfilled with god in my life.
you talk about eyesores which cost money while others are starving, what about christian aid? that helps those starving what about the fact that churches all across the country raise thousands and thousands of pounds for many many different charities worldwide to help these people in poorer situations? just out of curiosity how old r u?
i have no problem with any1 being an atheist it seems the problems stem from those who do not understand properly hitting out blindly. maybe differences in religion do cause wars but maybe this is because those fighting do not understand each others beliefs. it seems to me that you are a very troubled individual who thinks he knows best and anyone who thinks differently to you is obviously wrong. however that said it doesnt make me sorry for being me and for thinking as an individual who likes her own god given free will.
Happy Idiots
If religious people do indeed live longer and are indeed happier, as some studies claim to show, then the evolutionary basis and reason for the continued existence of religion in the face of rationality and common sense is self-evident. Humans would have evolved a propensity to become religious because it helps their survival.
The truth may set you free, but you might not be as carefree and happy. It will eat away at you — what hurts you does not necessarily make you stronger.
I would maintain that a healthy (i.e. substantial) amount of denial is therefore genetically heritable, that it allows us to blithely go on (despite reading Beckett) and to ignore the basic sadness and desperation of life. We can live in an illusion — in fact we are genetically predisposed to do so. These illusions can be small — I am just as good at catching game as Bob, my rival, for example — or they can be very large — that death is not the end and that I will be rewarded for my faith and Bob, the apostate, will rot in Hell.
Either way, they allow me to go on, to persevere in the face of unlikely odds or limited chance of success. We have evolved to be less rational that one might think, and to be slightly more delusional and even stupid.
from:
http://journal.davidbyrne.com/2006/10/102406_happy_id.html
@sarah – what has age got to do with it? I am neither a child nor a demented old fool.
You said “it seems to me that you are a very troubled individual who thinks he knows best ” ?
So do you conclude this because I am not religious ? If I was sticking up for religion no doubt you would be praising me. Am I wrong to have my own opinion? Like I said if you want to praise “your god” then it should be in the privacy of your own home.
Have you ever been to the Vatican? no ! well let me tell you something about that place – it’s filled with more treasures than you or I can ever imagine (gold this – gold that). Whereas we are supposedly led to believe wealth is less important than faith. Afterall you cannot take your wealth into the “next life”.
Religion is not only the cause of more wars (& deaths) than anything else ever known to man it is also the biggest money making scam in the history of mankind. I live in a medium sized town and the church owns the main shopping street – left to them from some dilluded factory owner trying to buy his place in heaven. ALL over the country this is the case. The church is one of the wealthiest institutions going – that’s whi they NEED people to believe in what they say.
We are bombarded by religious cults knocking on doors , tv programs (sundays are terrible). If I wanted to see priests / vicars etc and wanted to sing hymns I would have gone to church!
Are things that cause suffering and misery not regarded as evil? You all go on about “your god” and refuse to accept that you may be wrong and another relgion may be right? How do you know there is ANY GOD? You tell me? One of the !10 commandments! was something like “thou shalt not covert another’s wife”. Ok MAry was married to Joseph and the father of Jesus was … Immaculate conception – IMPOSSIBLE
im not likely to ever visit the vatican as im not catholic, age has nothin to do with it as i said i was just curious, im not sayin i could not be wrong maybe i am however i choose to believe what i believe an jsut wish others namely you would learn to respect that. does the church owning your high street mean tht you cant shop there? no i think not! and as for the church is rich thing, my church struggles to pay the bills each month so this my friend is simply not true at all!im not arguing about this anymore i never said your opinion wasnt valid infact i told you that i respect the fact that you choose to be an atheist,
all these theories are great but u r all forgetting one important fact what do you got to loss ? your souls/let say there is no god then you lost nothing but if you do follow god and live right buy loving him you will gain everything if there is a god and if there is a god and you dont show your love you will go down is it worth it to risk this do you really want to say there is none and not love him and then die and find out your wrong and go to hell or take a chance and love him and go up to the gates its your soul but i would rather love him show respect and if im right go up if wrong i lose nothin so eiter way i loose notin if your wrong you loose your soul
perhaps, sufferings is test given to us by god to see how we overcome it ourself. afterall, we can’t keep god busy with our problems. many more people are suffering more than us.
[...] The Possibility of a God [...]
during the first few replies some of you tried to prove that “free will and all-powerfulness are mutually exclusive.”
I do not agree with this. One explanation is as follows:
A christan god is defined as all-knowing and all-powerfull. Hence he could choose to only create those “souls” or people that would choose to do with their free will what God wants, and those choices would then be apart of His greater plan.
comments anyone?
Being Omnipotent (all powerful) and the existence of Free Will is not an issue – it is possible.
However, being Omniscient (all knowing) and having free will is where the logical conflict and impossibilities begin.
You can not have an omniscient being of any sort and also have free will in existence; for if any being knows what you will do, then it is already set and the decision has already been made. Hence, free will would be no more than an illusion.
I was a Christian, but I was questioning my faith alot. I see how you brought up the topic on free will. I have asked priests, religion teachers, etc. that if god knows our every move, then we do not technically have free will.
Also, the concept of war and how catholicism looks on it has been driving me nuts too.
*sighs* It’s good I’m not Catholic anymore.
It’s actually quite simple…Its the story of Pinoccio except he doesn’t see Gepetto, his maker.
My point is I see the “strings” attached to everyone even my own strings in that everyone does and think according to what God has planned. That blows peoples thinking, both folks who believe in God or do not, because both are likely to believe in “free will.” What is interesting is just as one cannot prove or disprove God one cannot prove or disprove “freewill.”
If somehow someway a person comes to realize he is a “Pinoccio,” strings attached, its a very sobering thought to realize “you’re the figment of God’s imagination.”
Finally, God makes both the light and the dark, the good and the evil (Isaiah 45:7). Now that is omnipitence!
I agree with this 100%. The Gods that are worshipped can’t possible exist under these conditions.
I have a question
If God is responsible for everything that exists, and if he is all powerful, then why did he choose the route to clear our sins by sending down jesus instead of making us sinless directly?
If he can create the entire universe, then he surely can change the way that people think about him right?
Then what is the reason of people that may or may not believe in him?
By the way, this is not an argument or anything, they are just some of my questions, that’s all.
ok…what if god simply created? like he snapped his finger and it was set into motion?…that explains why he plays no real role in daily life, if he controlled everything wrong and fixed all of our problems life would not be perfect…the definition of perfect is wholeness…not no imperfections, the good and the bad…the constant presence of imperfections makes you try…if everything was good and nothing ever went wrong there wouldnt be much reason to try at all. This had to come from somewhere or something…something cant come from nothing. the only thing we have is comparison and relationships everything is related, if we only had good we wouldnt really know what it was, since there was no bad to compare it to. if we have only light then we wouldnt know what it was like to be in darkness and therefore we wouldnt know what light was. free will is tough to prove. theres a few ways to explain it. imagine that before this world we decided exactly what we would do, what we would learn, what mistakes we would make and so on…everything wed do would be what we unknowingly planned, so it would be free will. or…we just wake up…you could go back to sleep, or you could get up…what made u decide? u thought it through, weighed your pros and cons…decided u didnt have enough time to sleep…that is free will nobody came into your mind and said get up and ur body suddenly sat up. both exist simultaenously, the big part is planned while the little part is up to you. Now god in no way has to be something defined by a book written thousands of years ago. God is simple…god. its really just a name for whatever did this. whateer the bible says, i never read it, anyone can beleive it or not i dont beleive that u need to read about god to think about god . yea god may not exist by their terms…but how does that prove he doesnt exist at all? theres more proof-everything around us including us- that he does exist than does not, simply because not everyone on this particular planet doesnt have it good.
An interesting argument. It’s late & I have not read through all the posts, but I read the original post & I wanted to add some ideas. Personally I think all religion’s are control mechanisms, although I do think they are all based on real people. There is a very old idea that before the universe, there was a single entity, that desired to know itself & upon this desire seperated into form to experience time, space & myriad experience so that it could grow. If we came from this source & to it some time return, God may be all things, fractured & seperated in time & space. We may have powerfull “spirits” residing in some other realm, drawing the experiences of our lifetime’s to them, at some time to return & become one once more. As for right & wrong, it is simply, solely based on perspective. If we are in esscense spirit & immortal beings we have maybe at some time chosen to experience lives we see in this frame as suffering, to learn & grow. If I were to pour water on a fire. It would be a good thing if the house were on fire. A bad thing if it were a fire in a wilderness & my only source of warmth. To a predator the Kill is good & gives food & survival, to the victim it is bad. If looked at, all things can be seen in this way. It is a belief in an ultimate (or divine) right or wrong that creates all the true suffering of the world. Just look at the destruction being caused in the world because certain people beleive their religion is the “right” one, or their way is ultimatly right, & their enemies are wrong. This applies equally to christians as well as muslims. Why do I think we have powerfull spirits? Can you see your thought’s & emotions? taste them, touch them? & yet they are more real more often than the body itself & have shaped the world we now live in. Is your consciousness uniqe? is the “I AM” I experience the same as yours? seperated only by my body? & coloured only with my seperate life experience. What of the conciousness of plants & animals? Scince tells us that all matter is energy. All matter is made from atoms which amount to a small faction of 1% of all material things being solid matter. Some 99.999% of all matter is energy. Don’t beleive me? look it up.What is spirit? If it is a cohesion with energy, it is not difficult to beleive it exists. Maybe not too well explained but those are my thoughts on it all anyway.
Hello,
4, 5, and 8 are subjective. 4 can be explained by reading Milton’s works, Paradise Lost and Areopagitica. The “good vs. evil” ideas in Areopagitica can be applied to the concepts involved in your list.
In order to be truly good, you must have chosen that good instead of evil. You cannot have just good and say you are good. In the same sense, you cannot have no suffering and say there is happiness; something becomes objective when it is contrasted to something else.
In light of this, 5 and 8 should be revised, and 10 should be re-evaluated with regards to the change in variables 4, 5, and 8.
Thanks for your time,
a Christian
“God created Man and everything about Man.
Man created God and everything about God.”
-Me
1. Toor you didn’t exactly come up with that unless you are a 500 year old french philosopher.
2. you make far to many assumptions in your argument for it to be anything near “scientific”
3.Your assumptions are inherintly wrong: the whole free will thing which seems to be the only one you believe in your blatant opposition to god immediately contradicts you fifth statement. Good people don’t always do good things.
4. have you ever read the bible, not just the Christian bible but any bible? you seem to be completely clueless about the argument your trying to prove, it appears you read a cliff notes version of “GOD” and decided it was all there was to know.
5. you say you have nothing against Christians… wait didn’t you directly in the beginning say that you did by saying that if someone believes the three (very limited) principles you set up you have a “beef” with them.
6. Finally you (although you deny it) wrote this to stir up trouble, its very obvious. Honestly I don’t care if people didn’t stir up trouble life would be boring, just come prepared with an intelligent argument next time.
To the guy above the quote is this:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” – Epicurus 341-270 B.C
IMO GOD is an entity created by man for convenience sake. To push all unexplained stuff to it. And think it will lighten the sin by believing in it. Sort of an escaping from facts mentality.
Seems like the most frequent argument to prove the existence of GOD is by arguing who created the Universe if not GOD. So tell me who created GOD?
In this world things is correct or proven when someone believes it. So it’s pretty pointless to argue about beliefs. If someday no one believes in GOD and GOD should not exist in humanity.
If God exists and He/She created humans, why did It do so?
If our life on this planet is a test to see who goes to heaven or hell in the after-life, it’s a very unfair test. Why didn’t I get a ‘free’ pass to heaven by being murdered when I was still a baby (I believe that all major religions send babies to heaven, no?) and was left to live my life where I am tempted to sin on a daily basis and risk living eternity in hell? It doesn’t seem fair to me…ah well!
It’s so simple.. why can’t more people see this?
YOU are GOD. YOU are apart of GOD.
Is everyone on wordpress talking about this issue these days? :O For those genuinly interested in this discussion, you can check out the last two posts on my blog…
This was quite interesting to read… Have a look. Its about near death experiences. http://www.relfe.com/near_death_experiences.html
There is a way of thinking in modern unorthodox science, that the universe is generally at a constant (neither expanding or contracting). That stars & systems are formed & die, things change, but that the universe remains & has allways been here. All this talk of it being created, maybe it has allways been? Where did it come from? Another unawnserable question like the mystery of the human heart. But it cannot be dis-proved, the theory that the universe has allways been here, or proved for that matter. Our galaxy may be young, but the universe may be far, far older than orthodox scientists generally think.
Another idea is on the relative size of the universe. It is thought by science to have an outside edge, despite it’s mind boggling size, being a spiral shape, contained in an oval, Who knows what is beyond this universe? or really what is contained within it? There is an old sufi mystic saying that within a grain of sand many, many worlds exist. It could be that on a truly minute level, far smaller than even the smallest sub-atomit particle that other universe’s reside. It is possible this universe exists within a grain of sand on the beach of some other world. This cannot obviously be either proved or dis-proved, but it is entirely possible an infinite? nuber of universe’s exist on the macro & micro cosmic level. Not to mention the possiblity of parallel dimensions or alternate realities, of which Einstein himself beleived were most likely true.
The other idea I wanted to write about is the one concerning computers. Again in some scintific circles there is an idea of computerized virtual worlds, not uncommon from the realities brought to life in the matrix films. If computer technology continues to advance at the rate is has been, in 50,000 odd years, if we are still here, the combined computing power on the planet will be truly astronomical. With just a tiny percentage of this power it is theorized that literally millions of “virtual” worlds, identical in detail to this one could “exist” & it would be impossible to tell the difference. Our world could be one of these, inhabited primarily by virtual contructs (which would explain alot!). But also “real” humans, who have maybe become lost or forgotten that they entered this reality, perhaps awakening on death to the “real” world. Again, “outrageous” as this idea sounds, it cannot be dis-proved or proved either way.
The point I want to make is that, the question may be better framed as “what is the nature of reality” as compared to “does god exist”
Wow. I could’ve sworn this started off as a discussion. There’s some fucking rude people posting here recently! If there’s a discussion anywhere that demands a little open-mindedness its this one, and if you’re just here to badmouth specific religions and tar all believers with the same brush then I suggest you piss off and go rant on a BNP forum or something. Being as I am of no religious denomination whatsoever, I feel I can say all this without any particular bias. Good luck with the real discussion all you genuine people.
Hello marionette. I assume you are refering to the previous post to mine? I also have no particular bias to any particular religion, although I think the budhists are the only truly peace loving beleivers as a whole. What I do object to is a christian telling me, or insinuating i’m going to burn because I don’t subscribe to their particular beleifs. I also find the present world situation incredulous, The west (namely america) has made & allowed war to continue at a cost to the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. The situation in lebanon with the wholesale destruction of a soverign country & thousand’s of innocent civillans, many of which were children. & the resons LIES covering the real motives of ultimate control in the middle east by iserael/america interests under a banner of judo christianity. Christian viewpoint, especially of the “born again” evangelical variety has strong control of both george “lets have WWIII” bush & tony blair. This viewpoint, regardless of the spin makes policy. It is a fact that religion under many guises, especially christianity is responsible for incredible destruction. If someone adopts any particular religion I think that they should be held accountable & be responsible for the things done in it’s name. & should be open to critisism & challenge. If the extremists have their way, & war with Syria & Iran starts, as planned, in a short space of time I doubt many of us are going to be left here. I think why people speak out against religion is because of it’s involvement in so much evil which has gone on & is ongoing in the world. Athiets (of which I’m not) most commonly have very strong beleif in the principles of humanity & kindness to fellow man. In my experience they have appeared more understanding & balenced as human beings as a whole. Although I do know balanced & upstanding christians, my experience has been that those holding extreme views (both muslim & christian) have been some of the most unbalenced & tragic people I’ve met. At one time in my life I was around alot of “born agains” although I have never been one, & I found their views deeply disturbing & the way they set about trying to convert others, usually by picking on the weak or those with serious problems. Surley in a supposedly open & free society? which holds free speach dear, the discussions we should be having are directly challenging to the mind sets & beleifs of it’s peoples.
Hi marc.
No I wasn’t picking on your post, I was scanning through the last few posts (as I’m not on here every day and it seems a lot can happen in between visits!) and noticed a sudden surge in anti-muslim comments. I don’t really hold with this hypersensitive political correctness gone mad at the moment, I just thought said posts were extremely rude and had no place in what I thought was a fairly open discussion. So I thought I’d say so!
What I do have a problem with is extremism and I agree with the points you make. What makes religious fanatics so dangerous I think is their ability to be so engaging to the right sort of minds (as you say, the weak or damaged ones)- unfortunately minds such as these are easy prey for someone looking to convert, as they will cling on to any apparently solid beliefs presented as fact. I don’t know whether fanatics actively seek out these easy targets or if they just preach at everyone in the assumption that they’ll get some people at least! You mentioned our “supposedly open and free society”, it’s a pity that this phrase isn’t as uncomplicated as it appears – if you hold to this completely then you must allow fanatical/extremist preaching, otherwise you are denying certain members of society their right to free speech (however potentially damaging the results). Which is somehow perverse in a society where so many other aspects of our freedom are being nibbled away at under the guise of protection of those within the society. But that’s a totally different discussion! But yes discussions should be free, open and challenging – just not purely offensive for the hell of it! That doesn’t get anyone anywhere.
hello marionette, thanks for your reply. By refering to “supposedly open & free society” I was being sarcastic. Yes we do enjoy a degree of freedom in the west, but to a large degree it is an illusion of it. I don’t hear much about the practices of whitches or wicca, but yes I agree with you that in a free society, everyone should be able to express themselves in whatever way they wish, as long as this does not cause harm to another. The problem, as you touched upon with fundamentalist views, is that they want to convert people & can & do cause damage to vunerable people.
Hi marc, yeah I think we’ve kind of reached the same conclusion via different paths here, sarcasm can be a bit obscure when there’s no tone of voice with the words! I like that application of the Wiccan Rede there (although i should hope it’s not exclusive to witches!) – people should be able to do what they like as long as they don’t do damage to other people/themselves doing it. I realise this is a little idealistic, especially in the West, but hey
I was having a discussion with some friends recently and we came to the conclusion that the concept of “freedom” anywhere is an illusion, as the most you can ever get is multiple choice. No matter how many choices you have, they are always constrained by something, therefore you can never have true freedom. Dunno if anyone wants to try finding a hole in this argument, as I don’t particularly like the idea that freedom doesn’t actually exist!
Hello again Marionette, The whole freedom question is probably the same as the whole “free will” argument & would probably go round in circles like the God, No God, argument. An answer would probably involve proving destiny or not proving it. My take on it is that I think we have very powerfull higher selves who chose to manifest & incarnate in the earth plane to gather experience. So maybe in this plane the choices are limited or there is an illusion of choice, but maybe on a higher level we do have alot more freedom. If you had an infinite amount of choices would that not make you free? seeing as you woul’nt have to make any of them if you did’nt want to. I dunno.
A popular argument against this one, is that “God gave us free will”. Well this argument is utterly useless and completely refutable. Consider those thousands of children who starve in developing nations. How could anyone justify this as free will?
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White people messed up the countrys
The people ahve babies by there own will
They ordered a baby God deleviered the baby its sad but true. God will tell us wht to do but we have to do it.
[...] The Possibility of a God 1 2 [...]
*ok, which one of you goofs sent Texas a Canadian Cold front as a gag gift*
As you will know at that time that He reveals to you the truth you have been blinded to see & hear for His purpose of you coming into your calling for the time that was for your calling. You shall receive the answer to this prayer that you will know & hear. May His will be done in your life.
Yes very good.
The argument often runs that because evil exits, God does not. The existence of evil rules out the existence of God Fair enough. Then, the argument goes that there is no such thing as evil, thus men are essentially good. It seems that if evil denies the existence of one moral being, its existence cannot then be denied. Thus, if evil still exists, then humankind is evil and not good.
The claim that “God is all powerful, God is all knowing and God is all good” are not, as a matter of fact, claims that originate in the Abrahamic traditions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam). They are in fact an import from the Ancient Greeks. Refuting any three of them is not, therefore, a move away from any three of the Abrahamic religions so much as the standardised and institutionalised dogma of the three traditions. The logical problem of theodicy (the existence of suffering or evil given God’s omnipotence and benevolence) is not the cast-iron end of monotheism. Many Christians and Jews for example believe God not to be omnipotent.
TH, http://religionandatheism.wordpress.com
My family is Catholic Christian, and I agree that we should not blindly follow what everyone believes simply because everyone is doing it, like the familiar adage: what is popular is not always right and what is right is not always popular.
I also attended a Catholic school, so I know that many of the Church’s teachings are flawed and basically brainwashing children and adults alike; however, I believe I can present a simple argument for the presence of God: humanity is flawed and it created sin, suffering, and the horrid religious genocides we hear so much about.
I am not trying to preach to you and wouldn’t dream of trying to coerce you into giving up whatever beliefs you have, so please do not get defensive when reading this and immediately criticize my belief. I only wish that you give my theory some consideration along with these proofs.
First of all, Creationism vs Evolutionism is complete idiocracy. How do we know that a day in the Bible is truly a twenty-four hour day? Time is man-made and therefore a day to God could have been millions or billions of years. Secondly, yes God created us with free will, all good, blah blah blah. But he (or she) does not influence how we interperet the word. Some people may use the Bible to argue against what they see as immoral or as a means to justify even criminal actions.
A true Christian uses the Bible as a sort of guideline to daily activity and does NOT take it literally, word for word (in the case of Creationism, marriage, sacrifice, etc.)because one has to take into account that the Bible was written many, many years ago and desperately needs some modernization(after all in those times priests were often corrupt and used their positions for their own gains).
Lastly, God does not want suffering in the world, but he does not possess the power to stop it. When he granted free will and thinking to us, he enabled us to control the world ourselves and is not responsible for poverty, sin, and other such problems of the world. Think of it this way: God has made us into a giant ant farm and although he urges us along the right path he cannot interfere with the decisions we make, due to the glass wall that is free will, even if he sees them leading us to a dead end or a figurative loose rock above our heads.
That is my rationalization for believing what I do but I assure you that I am in no way a “Bible thumper” as my english teacher once referred to some of the characters in one of my favorite novels, “Inherit the Wind”. I also recognize that this probably has little to do with your discussion and that you will never give up your faith, which has granted you my deepest respect. After all, without our own beliefs and faiths what would we have in this world? I wish you a wonderful life(perhaps even afterlife); Godspeed and God Bless.
I’d like to express my own agreement with Anonymous on September 5th, 2007. Bee hives have language and make bread, though individual bees seem too small to be conscious.
Even so, they are in their own way.
no offence but if you dont beileve in god then you must be insane
i come from a strong cristian family and i believe that god is real
if you dont beileve me then listen up;-
1. god is real because i have see miracles happen to people who have prayed on that person who has 1 week to live and the person( 3 months later)driving around in his ferari
2.every tie i pray i feel a sudden change in the atmosphere as if soe one is near me and every ie i’ve prayed soehing happens
3. Watch Revelation SKY:772 and god tv
4. Every thing that JESUS has said and prophecied ha coe true and you can find tha in the bible
5. i a a 12 yr old girl
i no this all because my walk with god has been strong and he has been with e all the waii
i hope you read this
love from
elysia
x
p.s god loves you wether you like it or not
If you think that god will save every body froo evil
he wont
because you have not accepted him into your life
and if you havent then he can not do any thing for you
you need to repent of what wrong you have done and turn away fro it
then you will truly know how i feel WHEN PEOPLE TELL ME GOD IS NOT REAL BECAUSE HE IS!!!!
god is really powerfull and god is great for many reasons! just think about it like that without god there wouldent be any good ppl on earth! the devil ( bad ) would take over and that is not good! by beliving and putting ur faith in god u will be protected in any situation why because god is watching over u and he’ll guide u to the right directon! so belive in god so u can do good in life!
Please take a minute to think. If there is no God where did the world come from? The only planet that has life,perfectly positioned in the universe, a little further away from the sun and we would freeze, further towards the sun and we would boil. It takes an someone amazing to create this. Everything needs a creater, for example take a table, someone needed to make it. It just didn’t appear from no where. God is there and he cares for you. He can do unbelievable things in your life.
Please take a minute to think. If there is no God where did the world come from?
The result of the formation of various bits of rocks and other miscellaneous elements left over from the formation of the Sun.
Just like the other trillions of solar systems in the Universe.
The only planet that has life
Now, the only planet that we have found life on yet. Considering we have yet to set foot on Mars let alone examine any planet outside our solar system, it’s not surprising at all we haven’t found anything yet.
It takes an someone amazing to create this.
False assumption by saying ’someone’, introducing an unnecessary mechanism to explain natural phenomenon.
Everything needs a creater, for example take a table, someone needed to make it.
Appeal to the Watchmaker argument, been debunked since (iirc) the 17th century.
How exactly has the “watchmaker” argument been debunked?
Has the 2nd law of thermodynamics been debunked too?
It’s an argument from design which falls into two main problems:
* Who designed the designer.
* The design of your average living organism, specifically the human body, is very poor. If there was a designer, it was very far from being intelligent.
Richard Dawkins pretty much demolished it in ‘The Blind Watchmaker’ rather well.
And what about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics? Oh wait, please don’t tell me you’re going to try to say it disproves Evolution. Seriously, are you? If so, how about actually going back and reading what the second law actually is.
Oh no, why don’t you explain to all of us the 2nd law of thermodynamics–that’s why I asked.
And Evolution then logically fails for the same reason the “watchmaker” argument fails: pre-existing matter. Where did all that chaotic matter come from that sparked all this design in the universe?
This may sound stupid, I am only 16..but i have had some thought, and i beleive christianity, alone is a manmade topic, to reassure people that if they are good, and follow the rules, they will go to heaven, and if they fail to obey, they go to hell. Now, the old testament I believe, has some parts that are real and some that are not, and then the new testament is completly written up by
someone, in very high authority, that wants this wworld to work out the best it can, so they added onto the old test, to make it lead onto the new one.
Now the way I have figured this out Through the revalation of mushrooms, they showed me that this world is full of corruption, and high leaders like the government of the US, has had the bible, along with christianity all planned out from before alot of uswere born, and definatly me.Im not too sure how many people have had this come acros their minds while on mushrooms or anything else that would let them see this truth,but i am almost positive that this is why drugs are illegal, because they hold the truth they do not want you to see.Why do you think in the 60s so many people tryed so hard , and did so much “drugs”, its because it opend their minds to realize there is not god, nor religon, and this world is far from normal.
If anyone feels the same or wants more info i would love to talk to any of you. so e-mail me at
sefrith_45@msn.com and i would enjoy to reply
i was wondering if cowboys and indians belive in god and ran across this website it is amazing to read the opinions about god no one but god had died and risen no other gods has clamied to either i think you should beleive what you choose withot debate i think debate only shows the you are searching for something elese to beleive in i strongly believe in generational curses why people suffer and children starve their parents worship false gods or they do not beleive in god faith is something you beleive that you cannot see first we all almost have to beleive in god who could have inspired man to write many years ago about things the have come to pass i believe man will destroy them selves from lack of knowledge and consideration for others ive read many different books on just about all reglions and the way the came about makes no sense i guess what ever you believe sounds right to you so i say this something has to be right and i bet my life on the fact that god sent his son to attone sin and he will return again faith is not easy but if your friend showed you a check for a million $ and told you he would give you some ill bet you will believe him so look at what jesus said repent and be baptized and beleive he died and payed for all the sin i the world and you will be saved is the same as a promise from a friend may god bless u all
i support this completely i have had a four week discussion in my class about how im not disowning anyones beleifs of god or anyother sort of deity. its like you said most people believe blindly and have no basis on this belief besides their mom or dad believed thanks for this